458 and 488 price parity...

True. Hearing some people talk about the 458 is sometimes like hearing brain washed religious fanatics speak. The 458 is a nice car, but still also with some pretty big flaws. As a visceral driving experience, I will aldo say that n F430 Scud is a lot better.

 

Cars are machines they have no soul (though as I have said I bought an orange Kia Soul just so I can say I have soul), you normal people see cars with some emotional attachment, I am not capable of that. I choose cars based on their purpose and what use I have for them. When I bought my 458, I was not exactly looking for one, but it was there at Algar (and I was too) so I thought hmmm what purpose could I find for this car. My girlfriend tells me I use my purposes as an excuse to buy more cars, she might be right (she usually is). I wish I lived somewhere that I had canyons to drive through and beautiful scenery, but I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia and there are not very many times you can drive any car even close to its limits and because of that I am going to buy another 4C. It is more driver focused machine and it makes you drive it, not go along for the ride like most modern cars. I guess being an older guy with a lot of experience with cars has changed my perception of what really makes a car worth owning. I wanted to like Tesla's (could you make something that does not feel like a wheel barrel), and the Taycan (it is just a little too perfect), new NXS (also too perfect and numb), and I could go on and on. I will never understand the reasons people on here buy cars, but whatever your reasons are, it is certainly not for me to judge. If I had seen a white 488 spider that day at Algar instead of the 458 (and the deal was the same), I would probably have bought it. I would not have ever used that extra power, but that is another story.

 

I had a 458, now 488. Would I move on to an F8? Maybe. Would I go back to 458? Absolutely not.

 

I wouldn’t go back from:
- the 812SF to the F12
- the Pista to the Speciale
- the FF to the 612 OTO

But I do prefer the 993TT over any modern Porsche. So, I definitely get nostalgia. I just have to go back 20+ years to feel it, to an era before cars got so big, heavy, and laden with acronym-bearing gizmos that detract from the driving experience imho. Having said that, the 458’s are still absolutely amazing and I’d wear a big stupid grin if that’s what I drove.

 

Pista to CS

 

I don’t know why it’s one or the other, why do people get so defensive.
All cool cars. 458 in my eyes is special because it’s last pininfarina of this series, last na v8 that I LOVE the sound of at 9k rpm through all inconel pipes. It’s raw, as raw as I’m willing to go at least, 430/360/355/etc not practical for me, too old. Cool to have not to drive.

488 rips, super fast, those arches/vents, especially in carbon, so fire. N Largo is the perfect setup. 10000% for my taste requires at least exhaust, preferably proper full setup, hearing this turbos whistle...glorious. Still sounds mclareny to me where’s 458 is more unique, but give me a break, killer either way.

 

At local dealer in the last month or so, 2 Pistas have been on consignment, both disappointed and returning to Speciales. One 812/F12.
I’m not saying either/or right/wrong, whatever else, just sharing the info. I happen to love the Pista. 812...I would admittedly prefer the F12. Something about that body.

 

First I’ve heard about any Pista owner being disappointed, but there are no right or wrong answers. I’m just happy to be here in any Ferrari.

 

It reminds me very much to Porche 993/996 conversation. Have a look to today’s value P and you will understand. Is 993 magic? Nope, it drives like crap actually, but... there are the feelings waiting for you and the connection to the car.

Try a F8 and compare to 488. Situation is going to worse with every new model launched.

 

Sorry - that is too hard to believe.

 

The comparison does not really stand for me - the 996 was a totally different car after years of evolution; for Ferrari if there has been a similar change it was between the 355 and 360, when the tubular frame was abandoned and the aluminium shell introduced. Since then the sports V8 Ferrari have been on the same development path with incremental changes, and the 458 is just an intermediate step in this path. It remains to be seen whether the F8 will actually end this lineage.

 

I know a guy that has both an uses them heavily on track.

Pista.. ufff, this car is super fast
Speciale, (smile), super fun to drive

just a small detail between 458 and newcomers... a small device called turbo that makes you both, faster and unconnected to the car. Yes, it’s the future but it doesn’t mean it’s better.

 

I ordered a new 812 because I wanted to spec a car at least once, it's my fourth Ferrari. This is probably the worst car to spec for losing money. One thing that people aren't getting in these discussions is that someone has to be the first buyer and Ferrari isn't making cars and shipping them to buyers without first buyers specing them. So if depreciation is too bad, I and others will simply quit specing new cars and then where will Ferrari be?

This is exactly where Maserati and Aston Martin find themselves, egregious depreciation in the first year means many dealers still have last years cars sitting on the lots and guess what, they sell new at a huge discount to MSRP the next year with no miles. I bought an untilted QP GTS that way in 2017 (it was a 2016) and an untitled AMG GT C roadster that way in 2019 (it was a 2018). So if Ferrari starts shipping more and more dealer specs, we will see the same thing with them and then you can get a new car at a discount.

As far as F12 over 812, I have a 2018 488 and really didn't want to go backwards to a 2017 or earlier F12. I like the newer features and the improvements in the cars and I am not nostalgic over Pininfarina or the slower 458 just because it's louder and revs higher (I will get that in the 812 anyway). I drove a Gran Turismo which sounds great but was exceedingly dissappointed with what happens when the pedal is to the metal. Ferrari has done a great job with it's turbo management, better than any other car company and I have had turbo cars from many other manufacturers.

 

I really don't see how turbochargers disconnect from a car - seems more like a catchphrase to me.
On the other hand I understand how electronics could, but electronics did not appear out of the blue on the 488, it's been there for a long time and the 458 has almost as much as the 488.

 

And older does not mean better either. They are just different. Funny thing is that the instant punch and power kn tap, makes me feel a lot more connected to a 488 than a 458. If we then throw the difference between the 458 Spider and the 488 Spider into the mix, thst sense of disconnect in the 458 grows dramatically due to the soft suspension snd chassis flex. The better a car drives, the better I connect with it. The engine in a 458 might make a lot of noise, but its power level does not thrill me, and in a car where the sense of power and movement is such a big part of the equation, it's not enough. Add to that the much better brakes and chassis of the 488 and there's no doubt as to which car I feel is the more exciting and special car. If sound and visceral connectivity is on a level which completely overule the attributes of the 488. Why is the 458 even in play? Then there are cars out there that will do a much better job such as the 355 and Scud. When you call the 488 a newcomer like the 458 is some kind of elderly classic car, you are shooting pretty far above target. Take away the difference in induction, and you are looking at two cars that are very much a product of the same point in time - one just being slightly less refined and up-to-date. There's no real point in beginning reffering to any of these cars as hyper analogue classics, because they are not. If you have driven a 250 or 330 for instance, you know what I'm on about. And if you stll think a 458 is an especially connected and uniquely well driving visceral machine seen with modern eyes, all you have to do is get behind the wheel of a GT3RS 991 and see what is actually possible using "only" 500 hp.
I don't mind and am perfectly fine with the fact that some think the 458 is the best thing since sliced bread, but I still don't understand why this infatuation with this car, always have to be based on the dislikes of the 488. I mean, isn't the 458 good enough to stand up on its own? If it is, why even mention the 488 when praising the 458. It's no different than when manufacture A tries to sell a product and bases their marketing on discrediting manufacture B's product. To me, that shows a weakness in ones belief and sense of worth in the product. So I wonder how much of this 458/488 infighting might stem from some kind of insecurity and dissatisfaction about the fact that the 458 no longer carries as much prestgue and status as it once did as the Ferrari top dog V8. Times change and the world moves on, and like with the 458 and all the models before, something else will replace the 488 and F8, and the world will look to that as the best there is. What is the best? On a subjective level, that's what you like. But objectively and per Enzo's idea of evolution, it's the latest model. On a subjective level we can argue and talk about all the things we like about a specific model and why we think it is the best. But it makes no sense talking about it like it's some kind of objective defacto gospel we should all adhere to.

Enjoy what you like, no need to make something seem better by putting something else down. If it's that good, it can stand on its own merit.

 

Precisely. What's interesting when debating the electronics, is how intrusive they feel. I personally think the 430 is the worst in this regard. It got almost as many things going in terms of electronics as this generation of cars, but they were soooooo much more slow and crude somehow. They were really intrusive on a level that really compromises the experience. The Scud really gained a lot because they managed to dial it back as much as they did - it's a night and day difference. But even in the Scud they are still there, and so are they in the 458. Stll more seamless and less intrusive, but they are there. They are also there in the 488, but even less intrusive and feeling more in tune with the drivers input. So when arguing the element that disconnects a driver the most, namely the esc, I would think that the most seamless and well integrated system would make you feel the greatest sense of connection with the car. A great example if a well done integration is the RWS of the 812. My god that is good and did they nail that. It serves its purpose, but like a formidable butler, it just takes care of the things in a way which means you hardly know it is there. That to me gives a sense of connection as it lets you focus on the car itself and the drive.

 

Truth. Never owned a V12, always liked the go-kart mid-engine/Porsche rear-engine set up. For daily driving, F12 might be a nice change of pace.

Get your point on the tech but when comparing the 488 vs F12, I look at the 488 and F12 as both being one generation behind. I think this and low mileage on a used car are as important as model year.

Certainly don't think the actual F12 driving experience is archaic compared to the 488. Do you?

How does the Ferrari turbo management compare to your AMG GTC hot-in-V setup? The AMG sounds good for a turbo engine and the low-end torque is fun for the type of city driving I do on my work commute.

 

Although I'm a cult follower of 993s myself, one thing to remember is only ~68k 993's were produced vs. almost 175k 996's were produced during their respective life cycle.

 

You are correct about the generation behind but I was talking in years, 2018 vs 2017 then there is the improvement in the 812 over both my 488 and the F12. I like that the 812 has the RWS, my 991tts had that and it was good in corners.

The 488 is tons faster than the AMG, it's 120 more hp and three or four hundred pounds lighter, it's extremely quick from any speed. The AMG is a nice drive but it's got less torque, it's 0-60 in 3.7s and the 488 in 2.9 although I have only gotten 3.2 in my efforts. The AMG is a good car to drive but I don't like the look over the long hood, I am hoping the 812 isn't like that. The Porto and Cali T are not long hoods but longer than the 488 by a good bit.

Ferrari does a great job with acceleration management, there is just no turbo lag or big torque burst at lower revs. Most of the torque comes on from 4k -6k which is easily maintained in manual mode. So driving that way you are always ready to jump away.

 

Gotcha brother. I was one of those 458 owners disappointed with the 488 going turbo, passed on my spider allocation and went over to Lambo for a minute. Maybe will drive one of the 488s in my car club as used they seem to be a decent amount of car for the money.

Got used to hood on the AMG GTS but always felt some trepidation about curbing the front passanger rim when negotiating sharp turns with curbs. Parking garages, entrances and exits are narrow where I live. Worry I might feel the same with an F12 but queried F12 owners say it drives smaller than it looks.

Never had any trepidation dailying a California for 2 years and that was coming from a 997 C2S.

 

Reading this same subject over and over in 1000 different thread about why one car is better than the other gives me the same conclusion. Everything is subjective. Different people have different taste. This argument is similar to people arguing, and backing up their argument, on why one fast food restaurant has better French fries than the other!!! It’s pointless. Different people think and like different things. If that was not the case, all car manufacturers would make the exact same car. This is why there are so many different options out there.
Buy and drive what YOU like and don’t listen to anyone else. Getting an opinion is one thing, but listening to others to make a decision for you is something else. By doing that, 10 out of 10 times you will end up with what they like. Not you!

With that said, 488 is much better than 458, since I have one!!! I kid I kid!

 

Hahaha ok.

 

This is like our girlfriends in high school. We at the time thought she was so hot and perfect. Now we look back, likely we would be like what the hell were we thinking? But the problem is that no matter how imperfect we realize our first girlfriends were, we just cannot completely forget about her. I think to some of us, that could be similar to how we remember our first Ferrari.

It's okay, just be happy drive whatever floats our boat. No need to over analyze the situation. Like 488, cool. Love 458 more, cool.

 

488 is better of course, lighter, faster, newer, fresher, of course!!! Terrific machine! No doubt.

But There’s a fact, 488 prices are heading abruptly 458’s. IMO 488 nowadays is in no mans land. F8 has arrived too soon for 488.

You all are right, let’s enjoy whatever the F we have.