458 - Throttle jerkiness - is there a fix? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

458 Throttle jerkiness - is there a fix?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by jordie999, Jan 14, 2020.

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  1. 3POINT8

    3POINT8 F1 Rookie
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    Jan 23, 2014
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    +1 for throttle jerkiness. the throttle response is great when you are getting after it. you can really control your speed with the throttle and don't always need a touch of brakes. its like a finely tuned instrument. around town its jerky but not a big deal. most of the time you are thinking to yourself "am i really driving a Ferrari right now, this is nuts" and not thinking about the throttle.
     
  2. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2013
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    I suspect some of this is due to the throttle being so precise and the engine featuring such high compression. Keep the revs real low for smooth driving. Also keep in mind, each mode has a different throttle and engine map, also adjusts suspension etc. So don't go looking for smoothness in Race mode.
     
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  3. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    I recall in my 997tt.1 that the throttle was similarly overly sensitive and rather jerky when in Sports Plus mode but obviously Porsche realized the issue was counterproductive and corrected it in the 991. It's clearly very much a mapping/software issue which can be fixed and I suspect even by an aftermarket tuner.
     
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  4. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    Just got back from a nice 50 mile jaunt - I can confirm that Race mode ain't any smoother......but it is more fun :)
     
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  5. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    Not sure I'll agree on the 488. It is still on the sensitive side, but not as ridiculously so as in the 458. It is an issue, and it does not make the car faster or better to drive. The idea that it would make people think it's like a race car? Yeah right! Only if you want be certain you will lose the race. The overly sensitive throttle and the way too jerky gearshifts are by far the biggest letdowns for me regarding the 458. All I keep thinking is. "Did the guy programming the throttle response not have a clue, and why does this smart gearbox with a brain of its own not know how to shift gears?". No real race car feels this way. They need to be smooth, predictable, and they sure as heck do not need jerky gear changes that upset the balance which causes a total loss of grip.

    It's not jerky because you are a jerk. The jerk was the guy whom thought this setup was a great idea lol.
     
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  6. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Yes I'd agree the jerkiness in 488 wasn't as bad as 458's but I was genuinely quite shocked to find it in such a late model car. There is no way such an overly sensitive throttle is ever going to enhance the driving experience or handling characteristics of any car least of all a Ferrari which is supposed to be the pinnacle of engineering.

    And agree whoever allowed the car to roll off the production line with an issue like that is a total jerk and should have been given the rocket.

    Also not sure how some claim the flaw as being some kind of special fun feature of the car. That one really blows my mind.
     
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  7. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Nah,it has nothing to do with compression. Interestingly enough, they fixed it on the Speciale. It's a lot more smooth and similar to that of the 488. The F12 has a bit of the same overly sensitive throttle, but still nothing like the 458. The 812 which is even more crazy in terms of power and compression, is even smoother still.

    I have been behind the wheel of a 3000 hp alky death trap, and I found that was easier to modulate than the 458. I once asked a corse cliente driver whom owns a V10 F1 what he thought, and he was of the opinion that the 458 throttle made the car borderline unenjoyable. It's all in the mapping of the ECU and TCU. The high compression of these cars has as much to do with emissions as performance. You have to remember that just because the static compression is high, does that not automatically equate high dynamic cylinder pressure. You can take two identical engines, with identical modern DFI cylinder heads and combustion chambers, and have one ping on 98 RON with an 10:1 CR, and the other run smooth on 95 RON with a 13.5:1 CR. It's all about the cams, lobe reperation, cam timing and lobe design. The valvetrain is ultimately what determines the dynamic compression of an engine.

    Is it easy to fix this with a remap of the throttle? Probably not. Can it be done? Probably so.
     
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  8. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Agree it has nothing to do with the compression or the actual engine and is a software issue. Back in the day when I had my 991tt.1 i had that car custom tuned to fix the stock mapping which was pretty ordinary considering. The tuner re mapped both modes, (normal and sports plus) and he completely removed the jerky throttle from the sports plus mode so it can be done. Pista is pretty good in that area now with just a slight hint of it here and there. That was one thing I am so happy they put time into resolving as it makes a big difference modulating the throttle through a series of tight turns.
     
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  9. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    Interesting. I've found the same issue with several Ferraris so when going for max smoothness (which is not often) I just short shift. I have NR software on my 458 and I find the throttle super easy to modulate in all circumstances, including track :)
     
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  10. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
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    Is there an actual issue here? for specific model years? I never noticed any inconvenience like that (OK I do not have a 458, but I drove one for some time and have no memory of such a problem).
     
  11. kbaillie

    kbaillie Karting

    Nov 4, 2009
    115
    Throttle jerkiness is real. Every 458 I’ve driven has it in all modes.

    Whether it’s an issue for you depends on A) your level of sensitivity, as not everyone has the ability to feel it (not a dig at all - I’m jealous of you if you fall into this camp!) and B) whether you spend much time driving very slowly, like in parking lots or city streets. At speed, it’s not that annoying, but when going slow it sucks the big donkey.

    The stock throttle map simply jumps from 0 to ~5% with no gradations in between, so it’s literally impossible to “learn how to control” - one can only get used to it or block it out.

    I’ve witnessed a real-time before/after fix via a flash from Mase Engineering, and the result is night and day. Highly recommended, and the burbles and pops they can bring back if desired are extremely smile-inducing too!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    5% increments... Please tell me that is a misprint.

    Who ever was in charge of that, should be fired and blackballed from the automotive industry - for ever!

    It explains a lot though. I have never seen the map before, but that is messed up beyond what words can describe.
     
  13. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Interesting that you bring the Novi piggyback up. I actually drove a 458 5-6 years ago, with a Novi box on it. And if memory serves, it did not have the throttle issue. Granted this was on a track and I never drove it on normal roads, but I recall it being a lot smoother than normal.
     
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  14. kbaillie

    kbaillie Karting

    Nov 4, 2009
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    I didn’t mean to imply that the entire throttle map was in 5% increments - just the very start of it (I forget the exact number, but it’s an immediate jump from 0 to something not insignificant). After that, it’s smooth.


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  15. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    Ah, that makes more sense. I wonder if that 5% initial step has an effect on throttle tip in. Say you are at 35% and then increase to 37%. I wonder if the throttle will spike at 42% for a split second, before settling down. If the curve is smooth and the tip-in is linear, then it should not be jerky. As you have seen the mapping, do you know what else is at play that causes the jerkyness?
     
  16. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
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    Monaco MC
    I didn't check the maps myself, so I don't personally know about this 5% (sounds way out of reasonable to me, though); in general maps throttle (or load) breakpoints are much closer for the smaller openings, to then spread at bigger openings. The reason for that is that the same difference in throttle has very different effect in airflow depending on the throttle position: 0 to 5% is a huge difference, whereas 95% to 100% makes almost no difference at all (if there is a conventional butterfly throttle with a central spindle, like in the 458, the flap is shadowed by the spindle diameter).
    So there is a natural tendency for the throttle response to smoothen as the throttle is more open, and small throttles is the area where a finer detail and engineering know-how are needed. Every engine is naturally smooth above 30%-40%, engineering ability is to make it smooth and linear in the 0-10% area, and this is a paramount concern in racing, so, in reply to some, there is nothing farther from a racing car then one with a jerky throttle.
     
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  17. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    I have a call into Mase Engineering to see what they offer regarding ECU flash, impact to vehicle, pricing, etc. I'm not terribly far from JAX. Frankly, the jerkiness really doesn't affect me as much as it does others.

    Nonetheless I will report back once I've got more info.

    This site has been valuable for my own education, and I'm happy to return the favor.
     
  18. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    There are at least two tuners that can fix the issue, both use handheld tablets that you can flash your car (and flash back to stock if need be). I will never take out my ECU and send it in for tuning again. I will either use a piggyback or a handheld unit to flash my cars only. I want to make sure I always have my stock tune stored just in case.
     
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  19. Franchise1450

    Franchise1450 Karting

    Apr 20, 2019
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    I am a new owner of a 458, this is a non issue. Even in race mode (which the exhaust sounds the best in so i leave it there nearly all the time except when police are around), while it is very sensitive, if you play with the gears and learn the car you can have full and complete control. Never drive in auto, the shifting sucks and the car sounds like ****, and may as well buy a Honda if you are going to do that :)
     
  20. rmk40

    rmk40 Karting
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    Feb 3, 2017
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    My car does this too (2013 Italia). I have to think it’s normal. Whether or not it bothers one person versus another doesn’t change the reality that it’s a pretty binary response on the low end (feels like 0% to 5% throttle with no room in between). I notice it most when I’m trying to hold around 40mph. It’s less of an issue at speed.

    Is it a major annoyance for some and not something others notice? Answer is yes to both because whether this bothers any one of us is entirely subjective. I don’t want to apply any 3rd party changes so I deal with it and still love the car. It’s one of the quirks I just tolerate.
     
  21. Carnut

    Carnut F1 Rookie
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    I am unfortunately more sensitive to this (comes with my other differences) and I have decided to use open flash to solve the problem. I cannot have an unsolved issue with any car, I either fix it or I get rid of the car.
     
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