R12 to R134 for 365GT4 2+2 | FerrariChat

R12 to R134 for 365GT4 2+2

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Choptop400, Dec 6, 2019.

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  1. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    I am sure that there is a thread or two on this subject. I have the radiator out as well as most of the front apart. So I will be reinstalling everything and now realized that I have to take the aircon hoses off the condenser in order to reinstall correctly as well as detailing the area. So with that said (the while I am in there Gods have spoken) Wouldn't it make sense to look into converting the aircon system to R134 rather than recharging with R12 which might be difficult to do in NY. If anyone has some information or experience, I would like to hear from you or as I expect there probably is a thread about this on Ferrari Chat.

    Last thought it is a convertible! I have never used the aricon.
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    Thanks Frank
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    I leave in France, so the airconditioning is just not as important as in other hot countries. My Car was converted to r416a and it worked wuite well. This gas is a blend of r134a with an additional 5% of butan/propane (do not remember which). This last bit of gas allows to properly crack the original oil of the R12 system. In other words, this gas is r134a compatible with whatever amount of R12 oil that is still in the system.

    I am in the process of rebuilding the whole system with pure r134a and had to remove all original hoses (damaged the fender in the process, spent 450€ on new custom made hoses), flush condenser and evaporator, replace the valve (found a R134a compatible one at summit racing ~$15), replace the filter drier (also found one at summit racing ~$20), also decided to replace the condenser with a thicker one from a truck (same area, new connectors, ridiculous price from china), add to the list a refurbishing kit for the compressor (summit racing again), last but not least a bottle of ester oil and connector sealant. I could not test the whole setup so far (engine is out), but at least everything fits together. Will update the forum once I have the possibility to confirm it works as intended...

    Here is my shopping list:
    FSS-33255 (filter dryer)
    FSS-38683 (expansion valve)
    FSS-24019 (york/aspera shaft seal kit) (not installed yet)
    FSS-24027 (york/aspera seal kit) (not installed yet)
    FSS-35845 (thermo cycle switch a.k.a Snow flake switch) : I did not purchase this one as mine works
    OTC-112422 (cork tape)
    VTA-331009 (O-RING WITH OIL KIT) (caution delivered with PAG oil better to use POE32)
    + some POE32 oil (ebay)
    + Nylog Gasket Thread Sealant (BLUE for new refrigerant(s), RED for R12) (ebay)

    I've mentioned the online shop where I sourced these from, as back then I could not find many US based sellers that were willing to ship overseas. No doubt anyone in the US can use another supplier and use cross references so as to identify the parts compatible with the four seasons references. Price-wise the US based sellers are extremely competitive, the total cost including express shipping to Europe ended up cheaper than buying locally the filter drier alone!

    Please note that I wish I had selected smaller hoses than the original ones (this was a suggestion from my supplier): it is such a tight fit in the fender that I managed to distort the body panel while inserting the hoses!
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    The original compressor and hoses don't have a chance of keeping R134 contained. Replacing it all will be expensive. I use R12 in R12 systems. Works better and costs less.
     
    willrace likes this.
  4. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    215
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    R12 is still available in the US, hard to find but it's out there. I would recommend finding R12 vs. doing a conversion if at all possible. There are also R12 alternatives that are environmentally friendly that I know work pretty well, I had a old Jeep Cherokee XJ I used it in that was R12. It's available on eBay and elsewhere.
     
  5. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    I get my R12 on ebay, usually from Mexico. If I do a conversion it will be to hydrocarbon fluid (propane/butane blend). It is compatible with the oil and gives more rather than less cooling vs. R134a.
    Ken
     
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  6. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Mine kept pressure from 2008 till 2014. The air-con specialist had changed the oil. He added some fluorescent stuff, and a few leaks apeared here and there, but not on the compreddor. York compressors are compatible with r134a for sure.
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Some info about switching to r134 is it's not as efficient as r12 and for the best performance you will need to upsize the condenser. Before I drove my car up to Alaska I had a week to look it over and get the AC working. Since the AC was not functioning I didn't know the status of the compressor. I got an adaptor bracket and installed a sanden style compressor. I didn't have time to up size the condenser or change the nozzle. The AC works ok but I'm sure it can be improved. I did this work in 2010 and it still works today.
     
  8. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    One also has to bear in mind that the evaporator of the single air-conditioning units is not that big and the fan does not blow a massive amount of air, so once the evaporator is almost frozen, there is not much room left for additional cooling. As said, on my car it worked. It was nowhere near what a GM from the 70s would deliver, but more or less in line with any European car of that era.

    Back then the argument in favour of R416a (and hydrocarbon gases) was that residues of the old oil could play havoc with the pure R134a. From what I've seen the expansion valve sensor is located on the bottom of the plumbing which can be a problem if the oil does not flow in the system and gets accumulated next to the sensor: the valve is likely to sense the temperature of the accumulated oil instead of the temperature of the refrigerant. so it may not realize that it is time to stop the compressor and let it suck "liquid" refrigerant instead of gas (big no-no). So Pure r134a can be a problem in the long run unless the system has been entirely flushed.

    Finally, my brother just replaced the stock compressor of his 400GT with a new York 210 compressor (the same as the one used in double evaporator air-conditioning units except for the metric nuts and bolts). This compressor is significantly more noisy than the stock one. That's probably due to the longer cylinder stroke. So even if a new compressor can be bought for $180 (http://techchoiceparts.com/inventory/117957-new-aftermarket-york-er210r-ac-compressor), I'd rather refurbish the stock compressor. By contrast if the car is fitted with a noisy York 210, the Sanden upgrade could make sense.

    Karl Rose made a nice post when he fixed his 308 : http://www.ferrari.cdyn.com/carl_rose_docs/
     
  9. Choptop400

    Choptop400 Karting

    Oct 10, 2014
    138
    Huntington, NY
    Full Name:
    Frank L Caponi
    Thanks for all the replies. Great insight and thoughts. I am stuck with having to take the lines off the condenser and letting the R12 escape (painful as not good for the environment). But I have the Ferrari in pieces in my home garage and cannot get someone to come to the house with one of the machine that can safety extract the gases.
    Frank
     
  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,093
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    There goes 800 square miles of ozone.....the good news is that hole ends up down over Australia so carry on :)
     
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  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    R12 substitutes are not so environmental friendly either, these "shale gases" are obtained through hydraulic fracturing. In the end r134a is a bit of a lesser evil and if one does not have the fund for a complete retrofit, r416a does the job. I personally had an argument with my cousin when he decided to refill his leaky 412 with an old stock of R12 he had: the whole 2kg were gone in the atmosphere in less than 2 days! If, as Ferrari owners, we cannot afford to make our hobby a bit cleaner, how can we expect others to be environmental friendly?

    As a side note, one of the best fix for cabin temperature is to validate the air-ducts near the battery (and its sibling next to the master-vac) are in "perfect" conditions. Whenever these are loose or punctured, hot air from the manifolds just find its way directly into the cabin and makes the car really hot.
     
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  12. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Raemin, do you have any idea how R134a is made? Lithium and fluorine mines are not so pretty! Propane is so much more efficient.
    Ken
     
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  13. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    "a bit of a lesser evil" seems a fairly reasonable way of describing the gas. Its nasty for the environment (and not legal any-more for new cars), but not as nasty as R12, and (yes) in most cases better than Propane (more on that later). My point is that if done properly (i.e recycle R12 then put new gas) I am comfortable with whatever gas one may put in the car, but let's be frank if the plan is to buy a few cans online and contaminate a system that is already full of R12, this is clearly not a safe bet in the long-run (most specialists will refuse to service a contaminated system) and it is illegal in most countries (read the Duracool caveats).

    As a matter of fact I would have happily refilled my car with propane if the local Duracool supplier (60km from my house) had been willing to perform the refill in a legal manner. They are only willing to sell cans. Shame on them.
     
  14. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    481
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    That shopping list has turned out to be very useful thanks. I picked up all those major components with ease. I ordered them from rockauto.com as their shipping to Australia was substantially cheaper than Summit racing.

    I bought the same receiver-dryer from Raemin's list. If you were looking for the Ferrari approved part, Maranello UK has it for about 95 GBP. Here's a link to the component manufacturer http://shop.autoclima.com/en/receiver_driers_brackets_and_liquid_separator-standard-60652001-244 It's listed here in their pdf pricelist for about 23 EU http://shop.autoclima.com/_Atch/en_Autoclima-listino_2020.pdf. I gave up looking for a way to make an account to buy it there due to lack of patience. Hopefully this info is useful to someone in the future, and they will be kind enough to give an update if they have any success.
     
  15. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    481
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    For those who have done major aircon work, did you replace the black tar type lagging material around the expansion valve? What did you use?
     
  16. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    On my "shopping list" it's called "cork tape". It is mandatory around the sensor, i.e the small bulb at the end of the thin capillary(?) coper tube. You do not need to wrap the whole valve.

    New cork tape is recommended as it makes the valve more responsive. The bulb senses when the system gets to cold, i.e when the refrigerant gas gets liquid and may flood (and destroy) the compressor. If such a low temperature is reached, the valve shuts down, which increases the system pressure and triggers the pressure switch that is located in the drier (other cars do have a separate switch). Normally this should not occur as the thermostat (snow flake button) is supposed to be adjusted so as to prevent the evaporator from getting to cold, but as we usually turn the button for maximum cooling, sometime, the expansion valve has to kick-in.

    As the R12 and R134 are different, upgrading the valve does allow for better cooling.
     
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  17. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    481
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Just updating this thread for the record. These York seals are not a direct swap :(

    I could use all the parts from the 24019 shaft seal kit, except for the shaft seal plate. The seal groove of the ASPERA is on the crank case whereas it is on the seal plate on the YORK. If the carbon seal has significantly grubbed the shaft seal plate I am afraid we cannot fix the compressor. The seal itself is the same size, so can be used. Also the design of the -fragile- carbon seal is totally different, but the York substitute is a direct swap.

    As far as the 24027 seal kit: none were compatible (see pic) except from the rotolock nylon washers. Good news though: the ASPERA compressor uses metallic gasket, these should last for the life of the compressor.
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  19. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    481
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Can anyone confirm the correct part numbers for the service valves that mount to the compressor? I’m looking at Four Seasons P/N 14720, and 14718, but would like to confirm if possible before I buy them. Thanks


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
  20. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Are you looking at mounting the condenser differently? I’m not too thrilled with the way it’s tied to the radiator. I think you could easily fab up some brackets and mount it to the body structure on each side of the radiator. Also by mounting it that way you could upsize the condenser to 28” which would help offset the lower efficiency of the other refrigerants.
     
  21. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Why don't you keep the original valves? These do look better. My AC specialist did not ask to have the valve upgraded in order to change the gas. He just replaced the shraeder (?) bit and applied a sticker next to the compressor specifying the gas had been changed. If this is mandatory in your country that's another story obviously.

    Please note that my AC shops refused to use the fittings I had bought. They returned these back to me and used their own. So this is obviously something you should validate first. If you source the parts, don't forget to buy the white nylon rota-lock o-ring when you change the valves.
     
  22. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    There are some variations: on the 365, the condenser mount is so-so, whereas on my 400i gen1 (december 81) the condenser is +30% bigger and there are some beefy tabs on the radiator that do allow to mount the condenser quite nicely.

    Also this condenser is a "standard size" so quite easy to upgrade with a thicker one: mine comes from a small truck, same mounting hole, its twice as thick which is not an issue given how the lucas fans are mounted. The 412 totally different (but this one does not require any upgrade).
     
  23. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Here is my setup. Current condenser is 21” and a 28” would go all of the way across. Also I’d like to have it separate from the radiator as I think it would be better to be able to remove the radiator with out discharging the AC system.
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  24. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    481
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    I don't have any original valves to fit, hence my search for new ones. The compressor was bought used, missing those valves. It came with the mounting bracket to the engine though, which was also not supplied with my car. I think I paid $100, which I considered reasonable at the time, despite the missing valves.
     
  25. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    If you've got an original condenser, the fittings are called rotolock ( rotalock ?)

    Within the swivel, the fitting does have a flat area that compresses the previously mentioned nylon o-ring. I do not see this area in the fittings you've posted. Here enclosed a photo of said area (the rest of the connector is not appropriate for our cars, but this gives you an idea of what a rotalock looks like):

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