Rebuilding Wiper Motor - 400i | FerrariChat

Rebuilding Wiper Motor - 400i

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by james.colangelo, Oct 31, 2019.

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  1. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    215
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    All,

    For my 83 400i, this weekend I am going to be removing the wiper motor and arm assembly. I'm actually sending it off to someone I found who rebuilds these motors. I'm also going to see if this person knows of any modern replacements that would fit, but I don't think they will be able to tell until they see it in person. They generally specialize in American cars but they are excited and curious to try this one out and I'm going to give them a shot.

    I'll keep everyone posted - also I don't think there is a step by step in removing the motor so I'll try and put one together. I wanted to start this thread as something that potentially can help all of us.

    The motor is going to this fellow: https://www.classicwipers.com/
     
    Ak Jim likes this.
  2. Temerian

    Temerian Formula Junior
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    Jun 17, 2014
    432
    Manhattan
    Full Name:
    Rick Temerian
    Hi James and thanks for the reference. Mine too needs some love- it seems to work on some strange intermittent pattern which changes according to the car's velocity.
     
  3. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    That's also something i am investigating in my car, but after fully rebuilding the motor I came to the conclusion than the only damaged item was the connector. For sure the mechanism wanted fresh grease, but inside it looked as good as new. The construction is quite robust and the worm gear looks reasonably sized considering the sort of modest use the wippers have to cope with (these cars are not driven for several hours under heavy rain).

    This being said I know now that my problem lies elswhere, and presumably near the washer pump or the vitaloni control knob: depending on the rotation of the knob (i.e with or without washing), the wippers do work properly or not. To be precise, the intermittent module (on the relay board) goes mad (clic clic clic) when the knob is turned clockwise.
     
  4. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    215
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    This weekend I removed the wiper motor which was incredibly easy.

    NOTE: I ultimately ended up taking out the battery, which I should have just done from the start.. so, here we go;

    STEP 1: Remove the battery

    STEP 2: STEP 2: Remove the 5 surrounding bolts which are all 13 MM
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    Here is an action shot of me removing the nuts; Careful not to drop them!

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    Now that the motor is loose, you need to unplug it. That part is pretty straight forward.

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    NEXT, You need to SWING it around the bracket. Pull the motor toward you and UP to clear the bracket ..
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    Then VOILA! You have it on your counter. The part # is TGE574 C

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    Attached Files:

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  5. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    215
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Sorry for the extra pictures it's hard to post with pics on this site in order.
     
  6. peter d

    peter d Rookie

    May 26, 2012
    1
    I have a 365 gt4 2+2 and the wipers went half way across the screen and stopped. I have checked the fuse and the switch and now need to get to the wiper motor, has anyone worked out where it sits and how to get to it ? James how did you get on ?
     
  7. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    Are you sure it is not in the intermitent and low speed? Try it first without intermitent and at faster speed (need to both turn the knob and lift it). If the wiper works in any of the other positions, you either have to : 1) check ground of the delay relay, 2) clean the grease in the wiper internal contacts, 3) replace the delay relay (actually hack a regular relay with diodes as the original is horrendous to adjust).

    No way the motor itself is damaged: it is build like a tank.
     
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  8. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    I had issue #2 on my car.
     
  9. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    I have not taken apart my wiper motor, but is it not a DC motor? if so, then it will have brushes and a commutator and so both can have issues. Brushes can wear, but are easily and inexpensively replaced. The commutator can also wear, but this is not too often given the motor's relative infrequent use. However, the commutator can oxidize and/or become shorted over time.

    That said, I agree that other things should be investigated first, before assuming the worst.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  10. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Also how much are these cars driven in the rain? I usually only drive mine on dry days.
     
  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
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    R. Emin
    #11 raemin, Feb 19, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
    @samsaprunoff commutator and brushes were perfect in mine (I've trued the coms of heating and cooling fans, but this one was still shiny, not even a change in color). The main issue is that this motor is above the manifolds which dries the grease inside.


    The wiper motor has a mechanism similar to the pop-up lights. From memory there is a ground feedback that drives the motor until the wiper arm is back in the proper position regardless of the position of the stalk switch.

    By the way, this is how the intermitent works. The time relay provides a short burst of current in order to move the wiper sufficiently so as to engage the feedback contact: once the wiper is engaged, it will finish the swing on its own.

    The problem is that the ageing grease makes a poor contact, which plays havoc with the feedback loop.
     
  12. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Ak Jim,

    True, but oxidation of contacts occur without use along with grease drying out over time. In the end, elapsed time/age tends to affect things even without use.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  13. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    Understood. It is interesting that your wiper's commutator was free of oxidization... I wonder if the motor is air/water sealed in some fashion given its use?

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  14. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
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    R. Emin
    #14 raemin, Feb 20, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
    0) The closed design of the end-bell does indeed prevent anything from getting in, and moisture is not going to stay here given the incredible amount of heat.
    1) The brushes are mostly carbon, with zero silver, and soft springs, so they conduct less but are also less aggressive to the commutator.
    2) The motor always rotates in the same direction, which makes a much cleaner brush track on the commutator.
    3) The design of the system imposes the current to flow back and forth between the relay panel and the motor, which increases the overall resistance of the system, and lowers the voltage. (read : motor is underpowered, which makes it last longer obviously... )

    See pictures of mine after a light clean-up (gas-oil applied with a paint brush). These photos were captured in 2022, so the part was 41 years old : not a single sign of external oxidation, but the heat had played its toll on the connector. This heat is probably the reason why the grease inside was almost like clay powder (thick yellow paste that crumbles). By contrast the grease in the headlight motors did not deteriorate so much, hence the reason why I suspect heat could be the culprit (?).

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    That's a lot of heat !
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    At the end of the day, clean grease and new connectors should make it do, when the stalk is on the upper position. That's were I was when the original poster of this thread started the discussion. Now, if you want it to work as intended while the stalk is in the lower position (intermittent) and the knob turned in the low speed mode, this is another story...

    The timer relay on the relay panel, does receive its power from the wiper motor. I can understand how this allows to make the economy of one wire ( a single wire instead of one for power and one for the feedback from the wiper motor), unfortunately the coil that is used to "hold" the timer does require a steady power, not the so-so contact you get from the fingers that are sliding over the encoding disk inside the wiper motor (oxidation in the encoder or bad contact in the stalk?). Even with clean grease I could not get a perfect power, so the timer coil makes numerous clic-clic-clic, and constantly reset the timer (i.e no timer). I've first bought a timer replacement as some substitute are now sold in Germany with modern electronics (no coil). Same issue. I've added some big caps across the coil, but this was still not satisfactory (inconsistent delay), so at the end of the day I just decided to route a dedicated ground and added a capacitor. This was kind of working, unfortunately the delay was to short, so the timer was asking for another wipe before the wiper had finished its low speed swing (was Ok with fast speed though). Problem was the internal spring of the timer that had become to soft with age, so not holding the coil long enough.

    I finally trashed the gut of the timer which I replaced with a Quasar 8093KT Intermittent Windscreen Wiper Controller. The original timer combines two separate switches, as a substitute, the toggle relay of the module was paired with diodes on the blue/grey wires . The timer itself does consume far less than the mechanical (coil / bimetallic-strip) timer, so a small capacitor is more than enough in order to "stabilize" the power.

    Should you want to replicate my solution, I've included a picture of the work in progress together with the two additional diodes.

    Original timer :
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    Circuit shoe horned in the original box: small capacitor can be seen on the left, the two additional diodes are easy to spot. Potentiometer can be replaced by a fixed resistor if you want to keep the look 100% original:
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  15. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
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    Nov 22, 2013
    571
    Australia
    This topic prompted me to look at a wiper motor I removed some time back because it didn't work and got very hot when powered up. It was interesting to note that unlike most other wiper motors I have worked on these don't have internal grease coated contacts just a micro switch type setup triggered by a cam. The grease was nice and soft still and didn't need replacing (even in the hot Australian outback). A check of the commutator revealed a couple of shorted coils due to FOD (foreign object debris) which looked like a bit of copper from the manufacturing process that had made its way between two conductors on the commutator. Removed the FOD and re-assembled the motor and it now works fine. :)

    Cheers,
    Al
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  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Raemin,

    Thanks for the info and solution! I have not reviewed my setup, etc but will over the next few months. Given your and others posts I am not better prepared for what to expect. Your solution looks very good option. That said, for fun I may simply design up my own. I have done this already for the dimmer circuit, etc but I have not had time to take pictures and post the solution... but will do so when I get a chance.

    Thanks for post!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  17. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Al,

    I have encountered similar debris issues shorting out adjacent commutator connections. It is always a pleasure to find a rather benign problem that can be easily sorted out!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  18. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Damn it! Mine was filled with white grease (lithium?) , not molykote like yours, and the contact fingers were also packed. Time to re-open the beast and remove the unnecessary fresh grease.

    My car is parked in a village nicknamed "chamber pot of the alps", I definitively need working wipers...
     
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  19. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    #19 raemin, Feb 21, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
    With a bit of luck removing the grease could make the capacitor unnecessary.

    For the record, our relays were also used in Lada Niva (reference PC514 582.3777), but the new one I found looked really cheap ("made in china"). Maybe an original Lada part would be more beefy and definitively not as expensive as Ferrari ref 110359 (which used to be £300!), and even cheaper than the superformance subsitute (£99 +tax) that is a look alike to my $12 Lada part...

    Will give the Russian substitute another try once I've removed the unnecessary grease.

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    By contrast the original one :

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    When activated : red wire is connected to blue, when waiting, yellow is connected to white/blue
     
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