F12 tdf market price thread | Page 23 | FerrariChat

F12 tdf market price thread

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Ferrari 308 Vetro, Nov 9, 2015.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    Tdf will be tdf no mather what 812vs will be.
    They will only improve what tdf was lacking and for this, the imperfection tdf has will become perfection.
    It is such a unique driving expriences.
     
    JackCongo, lamborarri and Caeruleus11 like this.
  2. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
    494
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Michael
    If the current emission rules and regulations stays the same, then yes, I would agree with your statement below. However, you and I both know with the way things are going, emission are getting stricter and the GPF is just the beginning of the end.

    Therefore, certain models, like the TDF for example, might have a special place among the current crop of supercars (seems like there is new supercar every month). Furthermore, if the upcoming 812VS is not numbered like the current 488 Pista Aperta, with the GPF and higher production number, the TDF will benefit from all these changes.

     
    Roland1688 and 4_Eff_Sake like this.
  3. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,582
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Soon enough every new Ferrari will have electric motors and then all electric. Those that know and follow the brand will have a special desire for the ICE only cars. Those ICE only cars that do not have any of the pollution devices during the recent transition to electric will demand a premium. Of those, the ones that are closest related to Enzo and PF will be tops on the list. Any of those with numbered plaques will be above them. The TdF has all of that and drives with soul even though it has no PF badge. I think it is the last of the best of the era.
     
    dustman, Roland1688, j09333 and 4 others like this.
  4. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2017
    6,705
    In a word....weight.
     
  5. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Doesn't really matter at these levels. Once you're pushing such heavy weights, a couple hundred more doesn't matter. The EV part will more than compensate.
     
    DGPF likes this.
  6. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2008
    8,539
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Edward
    Power to weight ratio may be compensated, but handling will feel more intuitive in a lighter car.
    Colin Chapman: “add lightness” was all about handling. I’d rather track a Lotus than a heavy powerful Corvette. In LotusCup racing, we would equate removing 10 lbs to equal 1 bhp gain. It was always fun to destroy the high HP cars in the corners with higher exit speed...whilst they would then catch us on the straights.


    Sent from my 16M
     
    m5shiv likes this.
  7. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    But the weights aren't starting in the 2000s, they are starting in the 3500s. I don't think it really makes a difference and the hybrid vectoring should compensate in other ways.

    I'd point out that while "add lightness" was a great motto, no one ever actually cared/wanted it as evidence by Lotus sales. Lotus was never able to compensate for power as much as everyone else could compensate for weight. You need at least 500-600 hp to sell cars these days. No amount of weigh savings in a road car will give you the stats you need without significant power.
     
    DGPF likes this.
  8. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 20, 2009
    7,462
    I've had this experience before, if you take to dealer, they can adjust clutch sensitivity and engagement parameters. Tell them the situation and have them adjust accordingly.
     
  9. JackCongo

    JackCongo Formula Junior
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2006
    779
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    Well, drive a Donkervoort and let’s talk about it.
    Weight does matter, no debate there....
    I’ve never seen a 2000kg race car...
     
  10. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 12, 2007
    8,930
    Weight matters.

    Lmao at the new ford gt500 at 4200lbs, and all the bloated BMW M’s people think are track cars.
     
    x z8 likes this.
  11. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    The point is that a road going Ferrari V12 GT car, whether it's a VS or not, hybrid or not, is going to weigh like 3500 lbs when it's all said and done at it's lightest. The F12 TDF isn't exactly a featherweight. 599 GTO wasn't a lightweight. 812 VS won't be and neither will any future versions.

    The 918, P1, and LF still dominate all the other lighter models on the track. SF90 will destroy the Pista as well most likely and on lesser tires. The added power, potential AWD and torque vectoring, torque fill, etc will more than compensate for any weight gain.
     
  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    EV will not always compensate, they run out of juice both ways, drain battery and if you exceed certain speeds (in SF90 that's about 130mph I believe) they just shut off then you are just hauling around a ton of weight!

    Not to mention centripetal forces associated with all that extra weight, plus more wear and tear on brakes and the tires can only take so much weight, etc...it's generally all bad with EV in a sports car
     
  13. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Yeah, but not when the extra weight is giving you another 100 hp, awd, torque fill, torque vectoring, etc over the lighter variation. Weight matters when all things are equal, but all things are not equal with NA vs hybrid NA.
     
  14. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    And the GT2 RS runs out of water...

    The P1, 918, and LF are still faster than every other non-hybrid offering from those companies years later (Senna maaaaaybe excluded)... Remember, the current lap times are on one-and-done cheater rubber. I'll put a 918 on 2020 Cup2 R up against a the latest GT2 RS any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Sure, the SF90 might be hauling extra weight at 130mph +, but how often are you really above 130 mph?
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    On the track the SF90 will always be slower than a Pista, using same driver, why? Battery will drain too quickly (it is tiny) and even when it is working after 130mph it turns itself off and you are just carrying a lot of extra weight, hard to maneuver, the Pista will be the far far far preferred track day car, so all that torque this and that will be meaningless after a few hot laps, good luck finishing a 25-30min session....
     
    Caeruleus11 likes this.
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    GT2 runs out of water? sorry, I have no idea what that means

    the GT2 Nürburgring time is slightly faster than the 918...(which has a rather weak IC engine)

    The LaF appox Nürburgring time is 20 seconds faster than the 918 and the P1 is about 8 seconds slower than the LaF...

    At COTA, front straight (130mph+), between 11-12, (170mph+), round the back high speed turn you could touch 130mph, but, when the battery goes out, all you have left is the V8 and lot of extra weight.

    LaF has a very powerful V12 that needs no assistance to outdo those mentioned ...
     
  17. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    AH, I think I understand this now:

    Intercooling. To complement the expansion intake manifold, two large intercoolers at the rear of the vehicle supply the engine with cooled charging air. Under extreme conditions, the newly developed spray system sprays atomised water on the intercooler networks, allowing a thermostable charging air feed. Maximum output is therefore maintained for longer, even at high exterior temperatures. The tank holds 5 litres of water and is easily accessible in the luggage compartment. A display on the on-board computer shows you when it needs refilling

    https://files1.porsche.com/filestore/download/multimedia/en/991-2nd-gt2-rs-catalogue/default/ff524d9a-d671-11e7-b591-0019999cd470/911-GT2-RS-Catalogue.pdf

    5L of water is 1.3gallons and I am guessing you can refill that water in less than 1 minute versus however many minutes, maybe an hour, more ? it takes to fully recharge a drained battery...so, does not seem comparable to me...

    but thanks for letting me know of that, at least indirectly
     
  18. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,582
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    For sure. A few more words: reliability, complexity, maintenance, repair, heat, size....
     
    Thecadster likes this.
  19. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    LaF hybrid battery replacement cost (parts plus labor) $200k. SF90 hybrid battery replacement cost $XX,XXX...

    Weight, reliability, complexity, maintenance, repair, heat, size, replacement battery costs....

    Plus built-in obsolescence as newer hybrid technologies are developed, moving forward. How's that going to play with the typical depreciation curve?

    Hybrid = the gift that just keeps on giving.
     
  20. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    In the real world, on real roads, you'll likely run into speed limits and out of road before battery power.
    And yet the LF, P1, and 918 all command a premium to MSRP. Guess none of those things actually seem to matter in the end...
     
  21. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    If you're buying new, who cares? It's all under warranty and you're likely selling the car before anything happens.
     
  22. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2016
    761
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    This thread seems totally off track
     
    CETH and Thecadster like this.
  23. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Look, the point is that practically none of these "track day" road cars even see a track and so all of this goes out the window. 99% of TDF's probably don't even have 2000 miles on them.

    In the real world, on real roads, you're more likely to hit speed limits, traffic, and run out of road long before the battery is depleted in any of these cars and an extra 200-300 pounds isn't going to be what's holding you back on a spirited drive.

    There are plenty of 918, LF, and P1 owners on here. How many of them have ever complained about running out of battery on a weekend drive on the back roads?
     
    DGPF likes this.
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Yes, it is, but the thread is a "how long is a piece of string" topic anyway.

    TDF is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it. What else is there to say? They sell at various prices. Every one that goes to auction has people bidding, getting outbid, and dropping out. It's worth $650K to one guy, $800K to another, and $900K to the winner. So is it worth asking price? Most people would say "no" since most people lose any given auction.

    Someone said one sold at auction for $900K including buyers premium. That means the seller took way less than $900K and that's way less than the $1M the OP mentioned. So no, they likely aren't "worth" the $1M asking price to most people.
     
    DGPF likes this.
  25. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 29, 2007
    11,022
    Full Name:
    goodbye
    The SF90 battery is not tiny .... it's the exact opposite of "tiny".

    More energy storage than LaFerrari, Porsche 918, etc etc
     

Share This Page