430 Scuds that don’t sell for years | Page 11 | FerrariChat

430 Scuds that don’t sell for years

Discussion in '360/430' started by OneFastM3, Jun 15, 2019.

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  1. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    I think this comment applies to yourself...and you avoided answering the question of whether you've had any "meaningful experience" in both 650S & LT on track or even off-track to warrant you belittling the 650S when the data to a marginal difference. All the comments I've posted have been OBJECTIVE ones, with subjective/personal opinions explicitly called out otherwise...your he said she said is really subjective.

    And I'm not here to force my opinions onto others; just sharing my 2¢.
     
  2. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Veteran

    Jun 25, 2005
    5,687
    Can we get back on topic ?
     
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  3. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Why would you want an F430 coupe and also a F430 spider?
     
  4. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    It's kinda related since some reading may not appreciate the difference between a base model and the hardcore stripped out versions.

    Both the 430 Scuderia and Challenge Stradale before it laid the bedrock on which the 675LT is founded. They are the same kind of vehicles. Track focused cars which by their very nature are limited in production and dripping with driver focused DNA. Whether they are worth twice as much is subject to how much you value those attributes in a car you drive on the road.

    I do admit it's got to the point now with values of cars spiking so high on things like the Pista, Speciale and so forth that it makes people like myself consider just buying a sorted 458 Challenge race car and trailer.

    For people whom have never tried the pukka race cars on slicks well I'd really recommend it. They are just so different it's not even worth trying to compare the experience, even to the track focused editions. The dedicated track cars are next level again...
     
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  5. Tamahal

    Tamahal Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2019
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    TAMAHAL
    What’s a McLaren??? Lolol ok ok that was a joke ...


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. stan996turbo

    stan996turbo Formula Junior
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    Stan
    If you read my post I said that “I’ve driven my 675 on the track” and that I driven and considered the 650 and thought that it was fast but to polite in its driving feel. This same observation has also been sighted in the majority of reviews by owners and press, I think the EVO video sums it up well, did you watch it?. I also presented OBJECTIVE track numbers from Randy Pobst at Willow Springs(same driver, same track) that showed a meaningful lap time difference. I’m not belittling the 650 at all, I was only taking exception with the notion that there was only a marginal difference between the 2 cars. I don’t have unlimited means and if I could have realized the 675 experience for 650 money I would have purchased the 650 and saved $100k. I instead bought my 430 because it was more exciting for a weekend car and still is I just added the 675(twice as much money as I’ve ever spent on a car).I’m very specific about the kind of sports car that appeals to me and the 675 is literally the first car since the 430 that has, hence why I still have it along with my 550. I would also not give up either of my Ferraris for the contemporary versions of these models. Your responses also looks like you’re not reading my post entirely, instead just looking to take a shot.

    ”.and you avoided answering the question of whether you've had any "meaningful experience" in both 650S & LT on track or even off-track to warrant you belittling the 650S”.
     
  7. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Are we’re taking a 650S SPIDER laptime vs an LT coupe? And even with that handicap the difference in lap time is still Pretty MARGINAL...1:25.88 650S vs 1:24.29 LT.

    https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs

    The difference would be undoubtedly be far smaller too in non-professional hands...

    Look, not trying to convince you of anything, you can choose to do whatever you want with the “empirical info” shared by fellow fchatters.
     
  8. stan996turbo

    stan996turbo Formula Junior
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    At 1.6 seconds per lap that would be a significant gap at the end of a race. For me though it’s not about lap times as you can tell by other sports cars I have, it’s about the specialness of the way the car feels. I wish car companies would stop focusing on power and lap times because we don’t need faster cars, we need cars with personality and connection to the driver. My M6 has 700hp but it isn’t nearly as enjoyable as my 850CSI was with 375hp.
     
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  9. barabba

    barabba Formula Junior

    Jun 7, 2007
    682
    Ticino / Zurich
    Guys take your McLaren somewhere else and bring this back on topic.
     
  10. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Personally I think they are related. Always going to be some brand overlap when discussing cars like 430 Scuderia.

    I currently own both a Ferrari and a McLaren so even more interesting to me. I guess its even more relevant to the discussion of sticking Scuderia's due to the shocking depreciation experienced by 1st owners of Mclaren's on cars like the 12C / 650s. Why? Well some of these much faster and newer carbon tubbed cars are now in similar price bracket to the Scuderia or even cheaper so those cars have some serious competition at the given price point. Ofcourse there is more to purchase than performance but McLaren is also a bona-fide supercar too. Decisions decisions huh?!
     
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  11. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    Grand Tour lap times:
    6 McLaren 650S 1:17,9
    7 McLaren 720S 1:17,9

    Is the 650S now as good as a 720S on the track? I guess we both agree that it can not be like this. So much to the topic "lap times".

    I take this opportunity to point out a big problem which McLaren has, and that is the core of my point of view, all of McLaren's meanwhile many launched products are extremely similar, are more or less the same, are using the same core technologies, produce more or less the same driving impressions.

    I like to compare cars, I do that very often. If a 650 and a 675 are "two completely different animals", what is a 650S compared to a 458? Yes, in such a comparison I use the term "completely different", but not if I compare cars within the McLaren product family. Let's take a close look, that's exactely why McLaren is under such enormous pressure. As I said, a McLaren is a McLaren.
    All highly potent products, light, nimble two-seater rear mid-engine sports car with an extremely stiff body, an agile and direct chassis setup, powered by a V8 tt engine with turbo lag and endless power, always a great sensitive brake system.

    Tow years ago I a had for several months a 570S. My memory of this car: other interior, more narrow tires, but regarding the driving sense a real McLaren. In my memory just as fast as a 650S, just as agile, just as stiff, and also weak in sound. Ask me about the memory of the 675LT; Oh yes, the color was different and the car had a few more holes in the body.

    I was allowed to talk to a guy from the McLaren headquarter about the GT. When I told him that I could not pack my Mizuno golf bag also for this car, he explained to me in great detail that the suspension set-up was again slightly more refined than in the 720S...

    And now back to Ferrari. The difference between a Modena and a CS is enormous. The difference between a 430 Scuderia and a F430 is as big as between a 675LT and the GT. If I compare 458 Italia with the Speciale it is obviously Ferrari was not so brave anymore. As it is between a Pista and a 488 I do not know.

    In the long term I see therefore a great uniqueness in a Scuderia (as well as in a CS), these cars were effectively still very unique compared to their technical base. These times seem to be over.
     
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  12. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Some interesting points raised. On track times I rarely give them time of day as it depends on too many variables which are never taken into account as they are not scientific tests, they are done for amusement of mass audiences.

    I do however believe that in chasing ever larger sales volumes, special editions like the Pista are being diluted from the track day moniker further. They simply up boost levels and dial in more power, sticker tires and some body kit with a bit more aero as if this is a compensation. So yes these cars are easier to live with every day but they are not the best track tools they could be, I think most buyers would probably not like it if they where perhaps? In this circumstance maybe they need to do what Posche do with a baseline RS (for the volume sales), and then a more hardcore GT3 RS (for people who want more), and of course you can always buy the Challenge car if its all about track fun..

    The fact that none of the specials are offered with fia approved bucket seats/harnesses and built in fire suppression system and fia approved roll cage underlines to me that these cars are not really intended to be Road legal focused track toys, they are seen as light track use toys. The CS was 20% track use and 80% Road use, I think the models which came after diluted that even further and we are now at day 15% track use ratio on the 430 Scuderia and probably 10% on Speciale and Pista. The only difference is software calibration helps to make it feel faster on the track.

    When the engineers set out to build a more niche track variant you get something like the Senna which is more 65% Road and 35% track. Did it need to be twice the price? Not really but that's marketing...
     
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  13. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Yep, totally agree on everything here, especially that last note on marketing. I'd also add that with any of the cars in recent years, we are unequivocally in the realm of negligible returns on usable performance for the road.

    And as for a dedicated track car, I'd say give it a try if you haven't already, but it comes with other stuff as well...I gave it a whirl a few years back, but the transporting, storage, pit support, extra maintenance etc just wasn't for me...definitely something liberating about just being able to drive to a track for a day of fun w the boys, and then driving home with a big smile in the same car afterwards.
     
  14. redcaruser

    redcaruser Formula 3
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    I agree with you. I know you love the CS very much. I can well imagine why. This car was an honest attempt to transfer racing into an already very strong street car. Ferrari was rewarded. I do not think the CS was a product based on a long-term market plan.

    That changed already with the 430, the Scuderia was certainly from the beginning part of the product strategy. And from then on, all manufacturers of sports cars use this marketing element. Some a little more successful, others not.

    Another feature of today's marketing time; even today, the special editions are in most cases only the bridge product to the successor. The special edition has to pushe the sales again of the old model at the end of its life cycle and has to make the market hungry for the almost simultaneously announced successor. That's why I see in a Huracán Evo the Performante, in a F8 Tributo the Pista.

    A quick look back at McLaren, they made several fundamental mistakes with the first LT. The LT did not meet the high marketing promises, its launch was a disaster (which led to the first catastrophic reviews), they allowed themselves the coupe/spider-lie and with the delivery of the LT each customer was aware that with the P14 soon a "much stronger and much more capable" car will arrive. So at the end most LT's found their way to the customer with the hope of increasing value. Cool.

    In this context for me another complete contradiction in this game is surprising. The special editions advertise with more performance for the racetracks and at the same time the hope for increase in value arise, or at least for value retention. At the same time we all know how fatal the use of the race track affects the effective car value. Hardly you tell the prospective customer that the car has been driven on the racetrack you can see him running from behind. Or you goes down with the price massively.

    Let's face it, today we are dealing with absolute marketing professionals at the manufacturers. They know that all. So why should a special edition be able to fulfill the high promises? The customers will never really experience it anyway. Because they would like to preserve value of their "investments", the car will never find their way onto the race tracks anyway. And that's also why today the super cars are sent to the track with complete race teams during the "official tests" (e.g. the Nürburgring idiocy), special tires are pulled up, the geometry is set extremely on racetrack etc. etc etc. And in the meanwhile all the product launches are part of big events, everything always well controlled and managed by the manufacturer.

    ...and the stupid YouTube- and Insta-junkies are playing along.
    Because they want to be invited again at the next launch! They want to be the first in the digital media with their oblique reports. In todays world exists only one goal, clicks clicks clicks, so many as possible.
     
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  15. scuderia09

    scuderia09 Formula 3
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    #265 scuderia09, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    Love to see all those Scuderia's for sale in Canada in auto traders ?? as of 2019/08/11 there no Scuderia for sell in Canada in Autortrader stop dreaming
     
  16. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
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    NC
    #266 tstuli, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019

    Sorry, my mistake, there isn't three for sale right now. There's actually four scuds for sale on Autotrader Canada right now. Enjoying the dream!

    2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
    https://www.autotrader.ca/a/ferrari/f430/woodbridge/ontario/5_45163980_20120201164434495/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=hl&orup=1_15_17&pc=L7G 5K6&sprx=100

    2008 Ferrari 430 CLAIM FREE | LOW MILES | SCUDERIA
    https://www.autotrader.ca/a/ferrari/f430/toronto/ontario/5_43227970_on20090225101957871/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=hl&orup=2_15_17&pc=L7G 5K6&sprx=100

    2008 Ferrari 430 0 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia 503hp
    https://www.autotrader.ca/a/ferrari/f430/mission/british columbia/5_45235406_bs200442110928/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&ursrc=pl&urp=4&urm=8&pc=L7G 5K6&sprx=-1

    2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
    https://www.autotrader.ca/a/ferrari/f430/vancouver/british columbia/5_43585278_bs200522103016/?showcpo=ShowCpo&ncse=no&orup=77_15_342&pc=L7G 5K6&sprx=-1
     
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  17. tonyswfla

    tonyswfla Formula Junior
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    Dec 2, 2007
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    pretty good asking price for an 08 even in CDN
    21 for sale today in USA
     
  18. _JERRY_

    _JERRY_ Karting

    Feb 1, 2016
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    Both brand new, I will agree without flinching. Both used, couple more variables you have to add in. Just my 2 cents.

    Let’s assume both are driven by grandmas for a linear comparison , I would anticipate more wear on the scud.

    The scud is designed to perform better at optimal, NOT to last longer.

    Repairs are nothing to scoff at, if money is a null factor , then by all means , go ahead.

    But I’m skeptical about finding a scud that’s been lying around not sold and in good condition.

    “Sharing is Caring...”
     
  19. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
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    Jun 3, 2011
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    For information i was at Goodings at Pebble Beach last night and they sold a 2008 blue and gold SCUD with a non Black interior for 184k the car was i. Driver condition some of the carbon fiber in the engine comp was damaged which was a good sale in a night when in general late model Ferraris were off
     
  20. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
    370
    NC
    Huh? Two of those listings are from the last 30 days.

    Plus we were talking about your claim of only 4-5 scuds being in Canada. Clearly there’s many more. I think you’re off by a order of magnitude.
     
  21. Tamahal

    Tamahal Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2019
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    Nice !!! We’re here also and will attend RM, Goodings, or Mecum today... are you attending the Concorso Italiano??


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  22. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Saw this post of a 430 Scuderia owner in Alberta on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/p/B1O7xC2hbsg/?utm_source=ig_web_options_share_sheet
    Damon from dailydrivenexotics in Victoria, BC had one until about a year ago, so there's another.
     
  23. scuderia09

    scuderia09 Formula 3
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    lol....I don't think so, i bet you don't own a Ferrari or dream of having one :)
     
  24. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Seriously, your continued attacks on fellow members about ownership and being "dreamers" is very elitist, petty and not funny. It is definitely not a stereotype Ferrari owners or Fchat is about. Time to grow up.
     
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