what is the front spoiler made of? | FerrariChat

what is the front spoiler made of?

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by raemin, Aug 1, 2019.

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  1. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    #1 raemin, Aug 1, 2019
    Lucky me, as I was planing to patch the missing bits in my front spoiler I've just found a cracked but otherwise complete one in the backyard of my mechanic! This one comes from a 365 upgraded to 400 body and restored back to 365, the owner trashed the left over...

    I originally thought this part was fiberglass, but it looks like ABS? Anyone had sucess glueing these? Epoxy for sure will not stick on ABS, I can try stabilit express but max quantity is 80g and it's not suitable as a filler (and damn toxic).
     
  2. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

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    Ken Battle
    #2 SouthJersey400i, Aug 1, 2019
    My first 18 years of engineering, I was making ABS. It should be possible to heat weld ABS with a proper ABS rod. Because it is a styrenic polymer, I think you could patch it from the back side using polyester / fiberglass. Filling cracks or voids would require a flexible filler like "Plastic Padding" which I have only seen in UK but there should be alternates available.
    These are just ideas to be tested. i HAVE NOT DONE EITHER with my spoiler.
    Ken
     
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  3. Il Tifoso

    Il Tifoso Formula 3
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    #3 Il Tifoso, Aug 2, 2019
    On a 412, it is fiberglass

    Ruben
     
  4. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    #4 raemin, Aug 2, 2019
    Well, this is what I was thinking when attempting to repair mine: lots of fibreglass under the radiator, but below the fibreglass cloth I just found ABS! Unfortunately the cloth was epoxied, so it was only sticking against the previous layer of paint, not the ABS. I was removing all this mess and trying to fix it properly until I found a much cleaner spoiler (with minor cracks). For now I've used $30 worth of Stabilit Express, hopefully "Plastic Padding" will make my life easier. The good new is that "Plastic Padding" is made by the same manufacturer as "Stailit", so it will probably be just as good on ABS (thanks ken by the way).

    Maybe the later spoiler are made of fibreglass though, on an industrial point of view it would make sense given all the fibreglass that is already in the cockpit.
     
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  5. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
    876
    Los Angeles/Florida
    #5 jacques, Aug 2, 2019
    My 1980 400i chin spoiler that is sitting on my workbench is fiberglass. I am currently preparing to repair it with fiberglass cloth and resin. Its truly main function is to protect the lower end of the radiator. The car also runs 10 degrees hotter without it. I hope that this is of some use to someone. Thank you. Jq.
     
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  6. pattorpey

    pattorpey Rookie

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    #6 pattorpey, Aug 3, 2019
    I'm also about to repair mine (1982 400i). The material is definitely not fibreglass. I'm not convinced it's ABS either, it looks more like polypropylene to me. In a week or so I intend to try some ABS cement to see if it will bond. However the damage I need to repair is on the "blister" which is supposed to protect the bottom of the radiator, which is cracked and has a small piece missing. And where one of the lugs which bolt to the stud beneath the radiator is located, it is also badly cracked. Because I can't get a positive ID on the material, I am thinking of replacing this "blister" with a fabricated section in stainless steel, which will have a flange to bolt it to the sound section of the spoiler (like a reversed air scoop), and will also allow me to weld on a new pair of stainless steel lugs for the bottom fixings.
     
  7. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
    876
    Los Angeles/Florida
    #7 jacques, Aug 4, 2019
    I'll be lurking and waiting to see what you finally determine the actual material on the spoiler is made of. It's the small lower end tha guard the radiator that I am concerned with also. Thank you. Jq.
     
  8. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    #8 raemin, Aug 4, 2019
    As I've got two spoilers I caan figure out what is stock from later repairs: the part looks like several pieces of vacuum formed sheets of "ABS like" material, riveted and glued together. there are quite alot of these rivets buried under the glue and paint actually. Looks like a proper way of fixing the spoiler is to use the same method (rivets and glue).

    Stabilit express seems to bond quite well, so I will just use a thin layer of this glue as a "primer" for the flexible filler recommended by ken.

    While I am on this I'll see what silicon rubber I still have: moulding of the "blister" could be a good idea...
     
  9. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
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    #9 Al Campbell, Aug 5, 2019
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  10. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    #10 wrxmike, Aug 5, 2019
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  11. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

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    #11 SouthJersey400i, Aug 6, 2019
    Again based on my years making ABS, the pictures Al posted could be ABS but visually it also looks like it could be lightly glass re-enforced Nylon. Nylon melting properties would be very different from ABS. Nylon goes much thinner once melted.
    Ken
     
  12. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
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    #12 Al Campbell, Aug 6, 2019
    What ever repair method you decide on I'm sure it will be better than what the previous owner had done to 40877! :)

    Cable tie it to an old curtain rod & put a number plate over the repair (not a number plate ever registered to this car). I bet no one else on here has the ultra rare alloy & Perspex front lights like these either. :(


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  13. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #13 samsaprunoff, Aug 7, 2019
    Good day Al,

    Wow... I have never seen such a "creative" repair :) ... It certainly made me chuckle this morning! As for the Perspex lights/covers... Did they simply "upgrade", ahem, the light boxes with this new "feature" or did they fabricate a new assembly. Hopefully it was the latter, as used light boxes are somewhat pricey.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  14. Al Campbell

    Al Campbell Formula Junior
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    #14 Al Campbell, Aug 7, 2019
    The lights were a very high quality modification. :) :)

    I couldn't believe some of the mods the previous owner had performed on this car. :( Hence the need for a total restoration. Luckily I have two other 400i's to see what things should be like. Note the tread plate in this picture - it's one off a house & caused the doors to sit proud when shut. The metal trims in the top of the picture are from the bottom of the rear 1/4 window - it had one from a Ford Falcon on it. The 400i badge on the back was a modified 4.0i off a Ford Falcon & don't mention the tail lights. :( Luckily most of the bodgied trim parts were very cheap to purchase new from Eurospares the lights a bit more expensive though. It will all be corrected with original parts when I'm done. :)

    Cheers,
    Al

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  15. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #15 samsaprunoff, Aug 8, 2019
    Good day Al,

    I have to say someone had some extraordinary "talents" by sourcing all those bits and pieces to recreate the various parts. I especially like the hi-tech fasteners used on the Perspex covers :) It is excellent that you have some reference cars at your disposal and the patience to sort out all of these items!

    On my car the only mods were primarily confined to glass pack based exhaust system and someone being a bit too excited with using a sawzall on one of my air box snounts. Since my car made its way to the US in the late 70's it needed to comply with emissions and so someone added an air pump and so the left side snount made it a challenge (I guess) to mount an air pump... thus it "had" to go...argh... Like you, I found some replacement air boxes (thanks to a fellow fchat user Galbert) and will sort out the exhaust later this Summer.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
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  16. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    #16 raemin, Aug 8, 2019
    Al picture is indeed very informative as with all these rivets I initially though, my spoiler had been patched. At least I know that most of these are stock and as I know where they are I can properly fix the cracks. Regarding the material: on Al picture it looks "milky" like nylon, but in person this plastic is much more opaque, also the material is quite soft, at least very easy to sand, from past experience nylon is just not as easy to work on. So probably ABS or SMC. Stabilit express sticks to it quite well, so time to order some plastic padding in order to finalise the repair.
    Thanks for all your help...
     
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  17. pattorpey

    pattorpey Rookie

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    #17 pattorpey, Aug 12, 2019
    For what it's worth, I tested two small samples of material cut from my front spoiler, and one small piece of Nylon 66, immersed (1) in cellulose thinners, and (2) immersed in ABS solvent cleaner.
    The two spoiler samples dissolved completely in each liquid. A common component of cellulose thinners is acetone, and a common component of ABS solvent cleaner is Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK). ABS has a poor resistance to both. I had suggested the material of the spoiler might be polypropylene, but this has a relatively high resistance to acetone., so I was wrong about that.
    Given other posters' comments about ABS, and this test, it seems reasonable to assume the material is indeed ABS. Despite being wrong about the polypropylene, I'm fairly confident the material is not Nylon.
    Even though ABS is relatively easy to work with solvent cement, I'm still going ahead to fabricate the "blister" which protects the bottom of the radiator in stainless, having seen the damage done to the original plastic item on my car.
    As a closing comment, I have never seen on any other car such an exposed and vulnerable radiator !
     
  18. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    #18 raemin, Aug 13, 2019
    You have to take into account that the design of the radiator has evolved: on the 365 it seems smaller (hence the additional scoops on the 400).

    As this was probably not enough, additional fans were added for the injected cars (not seen yet the yellow ASTI fan on a carbed engine)

    400 carb auto also has one less radiator, I do not know if this is the the one for the transmission or the engine oil, but still two radiators instead of three.

    So the initial design was not meant to accomodate for what is cramed in the later models, the later spoilers somehow address this: on my 400i spoiler that was fited on a 365, some additional holes were drilled in order to accomodate the narrower rubber bobins of the 365 radiator.

    Last but not least, the local dealers made their share of modifications: some cars have a double louver, some fans do seem to have ducts (like DeTomaso) and my own car has a radiator with "Levallois Perret" (a Paris suburb) markings. So a radiator that protrudes a lot could well be a mod... mine does not protrude for what it's worth.
     

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