Still Running Rich after Recalibrating Distributors | FerrariChat

Still Running Rich after Recalibrating Distributors

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by wintech, Apr 15, 2019.

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  1. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi All!
    I am running short of options to try to get the motor running within 14:1
    Some background:- for the benefit of insight to whats been done.
    Prior to taking the car off the road for the major service (and the cosmetic resto of all the back end components) it ran without any fault on the fuel/ignition side; although the fumes were bad enough to make yr eyes sting(this was a benchmark then and now) I put it down to the hollowed out cats I discovered when dissembling the exhaust system. The car had all smog equipment removed from way before my ownership..probably the original owner in Illinois had a say in that.
    During the major all areas of fuel system had work and replaced pumps,filters,injectors,black fuel lines, all other components were tested for spec..accumulators, cold start etc. I sent the distributors away for rebuild and calibrating $$.
    Assembly of the whole system was checked for leaks and all prestart adjustments were as per the WSM
    The electrical side was given the same treatment as the fuel all leads were tested for resistance /mtr. any pitting/wear on components was addressed.

    First startup/warmup was a challenge to get it to and keep it running due to the fumes, however I persisted and got it to start within 5 turns, idled to warm. Balanced both banks the next night as per WSM and it had remained in that config for 18mnths and very little driving.
    March'19- reading through the KE Bosch Fuel Inj book by Probst and decided to re-balance again to eliminate the fumes. I have a CO meter which I have tested on all my other cars and reads 300-360 ppm. The reading at both outlets on the Testa is 1745ppm!!!
    What I have found from the Probst book is the difference between basic position of the plates and zero position. My settings on the system were from the WSM...which is a K-Jet representation..
    By setting the basic and zero positions as per KE, it showed a variation in height of the plates from what I had previously set. I started it up and it ran smoother bu still waaaay rich still.
    I have just got some fresh fuel to put in.. the last fuel fill was 6 mnths ago. ran the strobe on both banks last night - the plugs are showing orange spark out of the cylinder in 6&7

    Now.. to my questions
    does the pre setting of the fuel system for balancing a KE system vary much from the K jet? Could it throw the settings out that far?
    Cold to Warm up running is text book; no stumbles, staggering, oscillating, crisp off the throttle from idle, happy to sit there for an hr idling and cycling the thermo fans.. doesnt overheat.
    Any input where I could be going wrong would be greatly appreciated

    Cheers
    Pete. K
     
  2. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,867
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    cars with cat? then those ppm are to high, without cat ok

    of course much too high. those ppm are at idle?
    what CO you have? test before the cats, may not exceed 3.5%, oxygen sensor disconnected. as you describe the problem I think you have more than 6 %

    you have a scope to test the ignition during running?

    injectors you replaced, have tested them before? even new ones ( so never used, but may be 15 years laying around ) not always are ok
     
  3. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi Joe!
    of course much too high. those ppm are at idle? - yes at idle
    what CO you have? - 1745ppm
    test before the cats, may not exceed 3.5%, oxygen sensor disconnected. as you describe the problem I think you have more than 6 % - agreed

    you have a scope to test the ignition during running? - yes..induction

    injectors you replaced, have tested them before? even new ones ( so never used, but may be 15 years laying around ) not always are ok - no not tested -all 12 spraying at the same rate to give equal CO at each outlet though!
     
  4. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,867
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    CO is meassured in % not in ppm, HC you meassure in ppm
    you may adjust CO to about 3%, then if all is fine also the HC will go down.
    so with your exhaust analyzer you also can meassure CO? if so how much you meassure just now?. you only agree more than 6%, so you turn the srew with a 3 mm allan driver clockwise to reduce the mixture to lean.
    sure all 12 injectors spraying same rate when you not have tested them?
    at the scope pattern you see something strange?
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    1. What version TR engine F113A040 (US version KE-Jet with Lambda) or F113B (euro version KE-Jet without Lambda) or something else?

    2. Do you have 1 to 3 mm of freeplay of the airflow metering plates (when pressing them downwards) before they touch the fuel distributor plungers (engine off)?
     
  6. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Something you may want to do is remove the exhaust pipes where the headers connect. That'll allow you to test each area of the engine (in 3 cylinder increments) to see if some are richer than others. That could at least point you to a spark problem in one set (assuming one set of 3 on one side is richer than the other set on the same side). If they're the same richness in both groups on one side, then you know you have a fuel delivery problem (since it would affect both sets of cylinders equally.)

    Hope this helps.

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
     
  7. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    And for what it's worth, my cars are hollowed out and I get around 275 ppm on HC, for reference.

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
     
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  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,867
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    before or after the cats?
    if after then also to high, has to be below 200
     
  9. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2010
    715
    Winnipeg, MB Canada
    Full Name:
    Jeff Blair
    Romano, I think Joe (rpissm) stated his car is "hollowed out" meaning no cats, Joe can you confirm?
     
  10. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi Steve,

    1. What version TR engine F113A040 (US version KE-Jet with Lambda) or F113B (euro version KE-Jet without Lambda) or something else?- F113A040

    2. Do you have 1 to 3 mm of freeplay of the airflow metering plates (when pressing them downwards) before they touch the fuel distributor plungers (engine off)? _Yes!
     
  11. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Yeah sorry, my auto-correct changed cats to cars for some reason.

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk
     
  12. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
     
  13. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi Joe!
    [/QUOTE] Something you may want to do is remove the exhaust pipes where the headers connect. That'll allow you to test each area of the engine (in 3 cylinder increments) to see if some are richer than others. That could at least point you to a spark problem in one set (assuming one set of 3 on one side is richer than the other set on the same side). If they're the same richness in both groups on one side, then you know you have a fuel delivery problem (since it would affect both sets of cylinders equally.) - I may have to do that ultimately, however for now I am attempting to eliminate the obvious/easy to access details off the list! hollowed out cats @200ppm is encouraging!

    Hope this helps.

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Do you still have the O2 sensors mounted in the exhaust stream? If so, you can measure the voltage on the unplugged single signal wire from each O2 sensor as another check -- i.e., using the manual mixture screw on the fuel distributor, you should be able to "swing" the unplugged O2 sensor signal at warm idle from less than 0.5V DC (lean) to more than 0.5V DC (rich). If you are unable to do that = serious problem.

    When you say "...had all smog equipment removed...", does that mean that the air injection ports on the cylinder heads have been physically blocked off with added fixed plates, or just the air pump (or air pump belt) has been removed? Any extra air "leaking" into the exhaust stream during warm running would badly confuse closed-loop "with Lambda" operation.
     
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  15. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
     
  16. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,867
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    sorry, have been wrong :( the heat here in thailand makes my brain dry ;) and confused
    you are right pete: clockwise to make richer
     
  17. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Yes Joe!- Thailand can be hot and sweaty in many ways;)
     
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  18. jgmblair

    jgmblair Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2010
    715
    Winnipeg, MB Canada
    Full Name:
    Jeff Blair
    Pete, I chased my tail for some time after my distributors were rebuilt by CIS Flowtec (Larry Fletcher). I was trying to measure the free play of the plates at 1-3 mm with a dial indicator but this proved to be useless due to two factors 1 - the difference in the effect on the plunger in the distributor which controls the amount of fuel delivered to the injectors is massive when you compare 1 mm to 3mm. 2 - the static position of the plunger in the distributor after rebuild can be slightly different for each side therefore your free play may not necessarily be the same for both banks. I started at the beginning with testing the fuel delivery by volume as outlined in the WSM, this is a bit of a pain in the ass but what it allowed me to do was ensure that the volume of fuel delivered was within the spec outlined in the WSM. Once I was able to rule out the fuel delivery it then became a tedious job to dial in the proper air flow. What I have learned is "DON'T EVER TOUCH THE MIXTURE SCREW" hahahahah ;) I could not believe how sensitive the adjustments to the mixture screw were. I had 2 meters attached to the EHA's and I couldn't believe how just barely moving the mixture screw would cause the voltage to swing. Not sure if anyone has asked but did you touch the throttle plate adjustment screw?
     
  19. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    Maybe too simple a suggestion? My 1991 KE Jet TR failed emissions (badly) two years ago. I borrowed emissions measurement equipment and diagnosed the overly rich mixture from the 7-12 bank. The culprit was the 7-12 cold start injector which was operating even when the engine was warm (the 1-6 appeared to have no issues, which is odd as I think they are on the same circuit). Cold starting is not an issue for me (I live in a warm climate) so I merely left the cold start injectors unplugged. Car has passed annual emissions checks ever since, even with no cats. My thread on the issue is on the site somewhere.
     
  20. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 22, 2007
    1,694
    Denmark
    Full Name:
    Peter H
    I should not be necessary to ever have to adjust the mixture screws. Once adjusted at the factory they should remain the same position I would argue. Engine problems later on will nearly always be related to other issues in the fuel injection or ignition system. The same goes for the individual adjustment screws for each injector output. Keep them as is and save yourself for a lot of trouble.
    Best
    Peter
     
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,867
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel
    pete,
    what CO you have now?
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I would suggest 2 things here.

    One is figure out what you are measuring. CO is not measured in PPM. HC is. CO is measured in %. Just so everyone is on the same page. Hopefully you can measure both. Co2 and O2 would be a big bonus.

    Two. The car can run perfectly without the O2 sensors connected but they can create problems if the ground is not well made for their system or if for any reason there is excess O2 in the exhaust and what they will do is muddy the water making it hard to narrow down the causes of running problems. In any diagnosis I disconnect them first and make the car run correctly. Then I connect them and see if they do what they are supposed to do in a known and controlled environment. If not I diagnose that as a separate issue.
     
  23. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2006
    4,887
    Troy, Michigan
    Full Name:
    James
    Brian, can you explain this more?
     
  24. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi All,
    Just an update to the dilemma still. I am currently recovering from a complete knee replacement and am slowly getting more mobile in my movements; hence no further posts since mid April.
    I appreciate the input and interest and will endeavor as best I can to give concise feedback on findings from suggestions given. Will be checking in with some input within the week .

    To respond to Brian
    One is figure out what you are measuring. CO is not measured in PPM. HC is. CO is measured in %. Just so everyone is on the same page. Hopefully you can measure both. Co2 and O2 would be a big bonus. Brian! Just ordered a CO measurement meter whilst located here on my Butt! I will have both in a week or so.
    Two. The car can run perfectly without the O2 sensors connected but they can create problems if the ground is not well made for their system or if for any reason there is excess O2 in the exhaust and what they will do is muddy the water making it hard to narrow down the causes of running problems. In any diagnosis I disconnect them first and make the car run correctly. Then I connect them and see if they do what they are supposed to do in a known and controlled environment. If not I diagnose that as a separate issue. Will do that as soon as I get back to standing crutch free and leaning over the motor.

    To Joe! still got 1700PPM HC Joe, getting back onto it soon!

    To Jeff!
    "What I have learned is "DON'T EVER TOUCH THE MIXTURE SCREW" hahahahah ;) I could not believe how sensitive the adjustments to the mixture screw were. I had 2 meters attached to the EHA's and I couldn't believe how just barely moving the mixture screw would cause the voltage to swing. Not sure if anyone has asked but did you touch the throttle plate adjustment screw?" Jeff! my challenges are in the form of only having the WSM for the K-Jet not the KE-Jet.I am now trolling through the Probst book to reference the EHA attachment details. Regarding the Throttle plate screw; are you referring to the Zero/Basic settings? or the re-alignment of plate to bore? The zero settings are adjusted by hammer/pin punch on the KE-J as well as the K-J.
    Regarding the wild swings on the EHA's- what meter did you use for reading those?


    Cheers
    Pete K.
     
  25. wintech

    wintech Karting

    Jun 1, 2011
    206
    Perth WA
    Full Name:
    Pete K
    Hi All!
    Update on the running of the motor-
    Yesterday I managed to get downstairs with my step-by-step checklist ( from basic to more complex tasks) to assess and isolate the running condition.
    Last Friday I had a highly recommended Bosch trained Tech drop over; a young guy from Germany(Bavaria) to assess the issues. He got it running but backfiring, and missing on the 1-6 bank. I concluded that he has not worked on a dual system and showed no interest in vacuum balance, WSM balance procedure Et Al!
    Thankfully he was happy to work for a reasonable amount.
    Back to the basics I went, with the findings of last Friday- Plugs 6 & 12 had the same spark/ bank 7-12 was running 170degC on the cat outlet - 1-6 running at 38DegC same spot (infra red gun)/ 6 &12 Injector were both spraying with good pattern/ Each Ign lead had pulsed on my induction timing light- This however can be a red herring..not confirming the plug is actually firing as I later found out.
    on Sat took it for a 20Km drive and it was missing at every level of throttle; no intermittent run/miss, which brought about the checklist more based on logic and ease of labour.
    Took all the 1-6 plugs out - #2 was fouled up and wet, the rest were sooty but showed consistent clean spots where they arced both sides of the electrode.
    Cleaned them all up, re-gapped and installed. Started up- No change.
    Next, took the dist cap off to check all leads for resistance/length #2 showed nothing at the cap end! Trimmed it and re-screwed it re-checked all again 2x and found a couple that got the same treatment.
    Back together again and started her up...still missing on 1 cyl! however the temp difference was less on left to right! adjusted the mixture on 1-6 FD and came back onto 6 cyls off and on!
    At this point I decided to go back to the pre start settings as per the WSM(k-jet version) - This Is Really Important!!
    The throttle body butterfly settings were way out of equal settings(Mr Bavaria); I removed the linkages and reset the balance procedure (if you have, and know how to use a DTI or clock gauge..this helps enormously) undo the butterfly screws until the gauge shows no more movement and then turn them equally in however number of turns it takes to get the car to run at 900RPM. With the brass BP screws fully in; unscrew both the same amount(mark them with a vertical line at zero) until it runs at 1000 RPM.
    I connected a vac gauge with a T junction to both plenums where I could cut off the LH line with long nose pliers to read the RH plenum vac and vice versa. This is critical for readings based on rich/lean adjustments of both banks ( the ideal scenario is the have no vacuum fluctuation between the left and right plenum at 1000RPM and at 2000RPM) The variables are the adjustments of the rich/lean in the distributors and the mixture adjustment screws ( item5 fig44-D58) Let me say right here that this is the first time I have done this complete procedure and it works!
    What I found was the balance of incremental settings on each bank allowed for a more clarified response to the rich/lean setting changes as well as the adjustment of the mix/adjust screws(item5 above) by doing so, I got balance of vacuum with no deflection at 1000RPM and the same at 2000RPM.

    The outcome today allowed me to balance both distributors whereby the eye-stinging fumes were diminished dramatically, it fired straight up and settled into a smooth idle straight away, and exhibited way more power and smooth delivery than I can recall. In reading back the foregoing, perhaps some images would be in order to assist others in piecing this together where they may not have ventured before.

    Cheers
    Pete K
    Perth WA

    PS! my new replacement knee is starting to do as it is told...worked 8hrs on the car today...3 wks in!
     

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