How many hours does it take? | FerrariChat

How many hours does it take?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Aircon, Feb 26, 2019.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Assuming nothing turns to crap, how many hours would it take to rebuild a 308 Carby engine including remove and refit in the car?

    Let's also assume that the heads are sent off for rebuilding by others, as is any machining of the block.

    Let's also assume that all bearings are replaced, pistons and rings, and removing and refitting the liners.

    According to the book, 45 hours. That's a lot of time if it's done non stop

    What's reality? I'm sure many of you have done my rebuilds.

    Thanks in advance.
     
    derekw likes this.
  2. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,114
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    100 hrs, done the way it needs to be done. That is as you say, assuming nothing turns to crap. But rest assured, something will turn to crap.
     
    FF4X4, smg2, Michael Call and 4 others like this.
  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Did you see the one where they have to cut the head into three pieces to get it off the block? That is an example of turning to crap.
     
    thorn and sltillim like this.
  4. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie

    May 9, 2006
    4,416
    Grass Valley, CA
    Full Name:
    David Driver
    and beware of the might-as-wells - they can take even longer! :p
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #5 Rifledriver, Feb 26, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019

    “something will turn to crap”





    Can we have an “AMEN”?

    40 years of corrosion, stripped fasteners and poor repairs. What could go wrong?
     
    smg2, Il Tifoso, Michael Call and 4 others like this.
  6. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    If the book says 45 hours I'd love to see someone pull it off in that time even assuming a PERFECT engine. Removal and re-installation is the better part of 15-20 hours so that does not leave a lot for tear down and re-assembly. Even the 100 hour number is on the conservative side assuming no issues which is essentially impossible on a 40 year old car. Not to mention there will be a nice long list of 'while you are at it' jobs you will be foolish not to tackle once the engine is out. If you plan to start doing restoration work with plating and detailing then the time will easily double or triple. Been there done that.
     
    2dinos and Michael Call like this.
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    Ferraris overhaul time for major components assume starting with a new motor, all the factory tools and a huge table next to you with a large pile of brand new parts. Not fighting disassembly, no evaluation of condition, nor repair of anything. Slam bam thank you ma'am reassembly with all new parts.

    In the real world it just ain't done that way.
     
  8. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
  9. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,114
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Or how about the Boxer block that actually NEVER came apart no matter what I did? Hydraulics, nope! Heat, nope! Press, nope!
    Ended up getting another short block completely. I probably spend 20 hrs just trying to get it apart.
    Be ready, not for the weak knee folk. It is like old age, not for the young, that sh@t is hard.
     
    Michael Call likes this.
  10. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    What ever quote they gave you, double it. That will get you into the ball park.

    You can't quote a job like that. It's either you do it, or you don't. So many things can pop up along the way, which are impossible to anticipate.
     
    Michael Call likes this.
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Well, my original post said "assume nothing goes wrong".... So it's best case scenario.... No one has actually responded assuming that yet.
     
  12. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Because none of the professionals who had been around the block would ever assume best case with a 40 years old motor that is known to corrode. That just sets up the customer relationship to fail.

    The 355 heads are now entering the corrosion phase. I just fought one bolt corroded to the head and it took all day. One bolt, all day.
     
    tbakowsky and Ryan... like this.
  13. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
    California SF bay area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    My car had 60,000 miles on it. I pulled the engine and pulled the heads off with no corrosion and no problems. I believe if I have done half a dozen of these and have all of the equipment and parts on hand 45 hours is not an unreasonable figure. The majority of DIY'ers on this site, like me, are doing a 308 for the first time and even if you are mechanically experienced there are a number of things involved in the procedure that are specific and need to be figured out. I have had to buy a few special tools and have had issues figuring out and sourcing the correct parts. There are no "Haynes" type workshop manuals that lead you by the hand step by step through the tasks, the factory manual is really just a set of technical data tables and drawings with terse instructions and you're not going to find a dozen YouTube videos as you would with an LS rebuild so you're mostly on your own but If I were to do a second identical engine and again have no corrosion or disassembly problems I'm certain it would go much faster than the first.
     
  14. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    I agree with you. I wish I hadn't asked because the answers from the professionals seemed a little self serving instead of informative.

    The assumption in my first post was to be nothing gives a problem.

    I had a previous 308 engine rebuild done on a car that was 35yo at the time. It had never been apart before. Disassembly was no trouble at all. Its all about maintaining I reckon.
     
  15. Roward7

    Roward7 Formula Junior

    Nov 29, 2014
    258
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Interesting to hear real life experiences on this..

    How did the book time of 45hr compaire to your recent engine refresh Peter?
     
  16. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    It didn't, hence the question. But it was almost spot on with the first one for the GT4.

    Something doesn't add up.
     
  17. Roward7

    Roward7 Formula Junior

    Nov 29, 2014
    258
    Australia
    Full Name:
    Rob
    Interesting, I am sure it varies a lot dependent on skill set of person/s doing the work and issues that pop up along the way, it’s a bit of a mine field, but questions asked, could help guide your investigation or just add more head scratching to the mix.
    These cars are great until it comes to get work done sometimes... :)
     
  18. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Yep to all of that
     
  19. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,114
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    I did and it was 100 hrs. I stand by that, given your parameters.
     
    gtu935 and Nuvolari like this.
  20. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
    Full Name:
    Rob C.
    As Brian said assuming everything is clinically perfect with a new engine on the bench and all the tools and parts within arms reach then 45 hours is possible again not assuming removal and reinstall of the engine which again in perfect circumstances can be done in 10 additional hours. If you are willing to skip double checking measurements and just accept what you ar told / what a package says then you can shave off a few hours. Some people do this but any competent tech would lose their mind at the very thought of contemplating such time cutting measures.

    I think some very good information has been given by some very talented techs. Challenge it at your peril as it was established through actual life experience and not hopes and dreams of a smooth ride on a 40 year old machine
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    That never happens.
     
    Michael Call and tbakowsky like this.
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Self serving.....now that is funny.

    In the years I have been self employed I will not even make a bid on an engine overhaul that is not for an existing client and I avoid those when possible. It is the least profitable thing I do. By the time it is all done you have paid a great big bill, the machine shop(s) have made a lot of money, the parts suppliers have made a lot of money and I am left with the biggest liability of any kind of work I perform. A liability I am left to shoulder on my own if anything goes wrong.

    No thanks, I have much better things to do.

    The job is always easy for the guy that doesn't have to do it.
     
    gtu935, JasonMiller, hyenahf and 7 others like this.
  23. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    16,205
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    Are you doing it yourself? Figure 1.5-3 years...

    My testarossa major took 1.5 years...

    40 hours is what something might take the 100th time you are doing it. With all the parts assembled and machined, and an intimate knowledge of all the idiosynchraises and all the odd tools...
     
    gtu935 and vaccarella like this.
  24. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 7, 2012
    3,322
    Tallahassee, FL
    As others have said, the Book Time is based upon a perfect situation. The parts are all laid out, the tools already on the bench, the engine already removed. Certain accessories and hoses may also already be removed. There will be no frozen bolts nor damaged parts which require extra time. The replacement parts have already been determined to be correct.

    The Book Time Rebuild may or may not have included the following procedures when they timed it in the perfect setting:

    - Will the new rings be measured for correct gap? Ditto for new pistons. Will out-of-spec rings be ground down?
    - Are all bores checked for taper and out-of-round?
    - If any bores don't meet spec, are they corrected?
    - Are bores glazed, and need to be honed?
    - Is the installed height of the old valves measured and recorded? Installed spring height?
    - Spring weights checked?
    - Do any/all of the valve seats need to be reground or lapped?
    - New valve heights measured and confirmed?
    - Are the cams and crankshaft measured with plastigauge during reinstallation?
    - Are all journals checked with a dial indicator?
    - Are all installed tolerances measured and confirmed?
    - Is the final build checked for leaks?
    - Add 50 more random things which depend on reusing an old part vs new part vs "new part that failed spec"

    None of the above is related to a problem such as a broken bolt, frozen head, or dealing with correcting mistakes made by a previous tech. But all are key steps. And if the official Book Time doesn't include them, then you're certainly going over 45. That's why you're getting answers that suggest a 2x time estimate is a better place to start from.
     
    gtu935 likes this.
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    A. No
    B. No
    C. Time includes liner replacement and assumption that they are not stuck and seating/sealing surfaces not in need of repair or service.
    D. See C
    E. No
    F. No
    G. Ground
    H. No
    I. Plastigauge? WTF uses that garbage in any situation? It is a bad joke. All parts installed are new from Ferrari and assumed to be perfect exactly the same way it is assumed at the factory assembly line.
    J. ? I have no idea what that even means and I built motors for years.
    K. See I.
    L. Yes



    I went to Ferrari engine school and have done a number of warranty overhauls. I may be the only one here who has direct experience what their book time does and does not cover. Their book time is what they are willing to pay on a warranty claim and that is all. A warranty repair is a car that is one, two, maybe three years old. Not a 40 year old car of unknown history and condition.
     
    gtu935, 2dinos, Jaguar36 and 3 others like this.

Share This Page