Extremely disappointed by 360 brakes on the track | FerrariChat

Extremely disappointed by 360 brakes on the track

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by fotostars, Dec 23, 2018.

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  1. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    Hello all Ferrari track junkies!
    I took my new to me 360 to Laguna Seca yesterday.
    I figured a relaxed HPDE day just before Xmas with beautiful weather in Monterey was hard to pass...

    The soundtrack at WOT is awesome and the balance/mechanical grip on the stock Pirelli tires is impressive.
    I quickly go intoxicated by the sensorial inputs of the 360!

    Now, to the point of braking. Boy, what a disappointment. I noticed it on the street a few times but didn't think too much of it. The car has 2 pieces slotted rotors (an upgrade, I guess) and what I believe to be stock pads from Brembo. New Stainless steel brake lines. New ATE Gold fluid.

    The feel of the pedal is terrible. Absolutely no bite whatsoever, almost like braking with my Touareg with the Miata on the trailer behind it. Not confidence inspiring at all! I had to put a gigantic amount of pressure on the pedal and even then couldn't really lock/feel the ABS. It wasn't a "soft pedal" or a "long pedal". I was just not grabbing...

    Now, I'm thinking, my brake booster may have a problem or is it just a matter or putting aggressive pads?

    Wisdom from all required, thanks...
    Merry Christmas!
    Rich.
    PS: I dressed it up with Stradale stripes for the day so it fits the track mood better... Attached photo ;-)


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  2. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    21,369
    In the past
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I can get ABS with stock pads running warm sticky Hoosiers. YMMV
     
  3. DougDish

    DougDish Karting
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 13, 2010
    189
    Northern NJ
    Full Name:
    Doug
    On my 360 I had success with a “Hawk” HPS but had to grind the thickness down to match the OEM. The equivalent pad shape is from a Hyundai Genesis and then grinding to thickness. Just need your local machine shop to put it on a surface grinder. Quick job should cost less than the pad.

    Performance was excellent and definitely works at the higher track temps we experience at HPDE type events.
    They will squeal at lower temps like street driving.
    Cost was good and Overall it was a good solution for me.

    Doug
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    Try a pad suited to the heat of track temps.
     
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  5. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    Any recommendation that are compatible with the stock calipers?

    What's the thickness you need to grind the Hawk HPS down to? Do you recall?
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    No. because I do not know your car. But you could start by using tempilaq on the rotors and see where your brake temps are. Then you can intelligently with data pick a pad compound in the temp range with more or less initial bite if that's what you like. Then you go and test those pads and move up or down in a pad series to optimize your braking. It isn't cheap but that's how you do it. If you change tires to a dot-R tire or a slick you might have to start all over again. Don't be shocked if you use one compound rear and a different one front. Carbotech makes your life easy because they have race pads that start XP8 and go to XP24. Each pad is more aggressive. The most aggressive pad is not the best one for your car but it might be under certain conditions.
     
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  7. azzurribaggio

    azzurribaggio Formula Junior

    Hi, I assume you didn't drive with Hooked on Driving? Did you go with Trackmasters? Nice 360 BTW. I'm in the market for a 360 as well and intended to track it at Laguna Seca also. For the past two years I've been tracking my BMW at various HOD events. Reading your post was also disappointing to hear, are those brakes the stock ones that came with your car? Also how do you like your 360? May I PM you for questions regarding your search and your car? Did they paint the inside of the burb at the cork screw green for Christmas?

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  8. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    @azzurribaggio , you're welcome to PM me. The event was organized by NASA (Drivetracktime.com).
    Happy to share my 360 knowledge/experience, if you're local to the Bay Area, we can meet over coffee !
    I love the way they painted the corkscrew to match the Italian flag ;-)
    And yes stock brakes.

    Rich.
     
  9. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    The OP's comments are not typical. His post details also sound like glazed pads in the wrong heat range. There are many things that could cause the OP's problems and sometimes it is not the car. Enough people have tracked 360's and if there was a universal problem in brakes for casually used streetcars on track we would probably have heard about it by now. That said the more marginal a brake system the more things like pad compound, rotor bedding, pad bedding, fluid condition, and ducting make a real diference.
     
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  10. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    Glad to hear this is not typical. My 1st impression was exactly what you just wrote, pad glazing: The feeling that you have pads made out of wood ;-)
    I'll take them off and have a look.
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,288
    socal
    The more aggressive the pad the more it will strip what is deposited on the rotor from before. The problem with that is going back to a street pad can make that pad not work as well. When pads are used or when pads are "bedded-in" there is seasoning of the pad and pad transfer onto the rotor. None of that really matters in real life when your braking is totally superior to the conditions. I.E. panic brake on the freeway from 80mph is nothing. The 360 is a streetcar 1st with all the compromises of that including cost for production. When we go on track we either have to stay within the top of the street performance envelope or fix things once we exceed the envelope. Sometimes we exceed the envelope by going faster. Sometimes we exceed the envelope by using the brakes too much which is a common failing of all of us including racers. We are constantly telling ourselves we are using too much brakes.

    You are in a tough situation if you street drive and occasional trackday. There is no good compromise. Doug's statement of the Hawk HPS is fine but that's a hi-perf streetpad. Is that enough? Well it depends on how much you use the brakes. Driving style can be huge. Many like to go as fast as possible and brake as late as possible. That isn't the fastest way or the easiest on the car. In racing 2 guys fighting often let the lead car get away. That happens because the leader in a 2 car fight has to position his car on a slower line to defend and both are trying to brake as late as possible so the guy following the leader in 2 car battle can't late brake past him. It feels fast but it isn't.

    If you overheat a properly bedded-in pad you are screwed. You have to be in the heat range. Then properly bed-in pads and rotors. When you do that the pad has to be more aggressive than the ones before so that the transfer layer of new pad on rotor is successful. Or you should have new rotors. None of this matters on streetpads. It only matters as you try to get the last few % performance out of the brakes. But sometimes that is what you need when your brakes lack headroom. If you really want to do it right get a set of rotors and pads for track and a set for street. One step further would be to have a dedicated set of track wheels too. The new crop of 200TWR tires are very good for light track duty and they are street tires so you can safetly drive to and from the track unlike the DOT-R Hoosier tire. The Falkin 615 is a really good tire for a 3000lb car. The specCorvette racers have been using them as their cheap spec tire and they love them. The SpecCorvette is 3200lbs.
     
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  12. gsm348

    gsm348 Karting

    Nov 7, 2003
    137
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Greg
    @fotostars I ran the following set up with spectacular results for ~5 year years:

    Stock rotors
    Stock fluid
    Stainless steel brake lines
    Titanium shims between the caliper and pads
    Pagid RS 29 Yellow pads (https://www.vividracing.com/pagid-yellow-rear-brake-pads-ferrari-360-challenge-9905-p-59128.html)

    The results were phenomenal. Like really phenomenal where it felt in line with the modern ceramic braked cars and I felt I could go as deep or deeper than most anyone on track.

    Since all of us have different perspective of appropriate brake feel and driving ability, my neighbor races an Indy Lights car with a sizable trophy case and has a 360. His first time on the track with the 360 he agreed it's stock brake set up was pathetic and so we went out in my car with the above mentioned setup and he though we were going into the gravel trap at the end of the first straight as we were braking 2.5 markers later than what he was doing with the stock set up.

    Pros:
    Stock rotors
    Pads last as long as any racing pad as I have had and far longer than the stock pads
    They don't chew up the rotors

    Cons:
    They squeak like the worst taxi cab you have ever heard. Like people ask you what is wrong with the brakes. I hated the stock set up so much I just dealt with the noise and enjoyed knowing they worked so well.

    I sold the car a little while back but have a set of the pads for all four corners with some use that I was planning to put up on Ebay, if you want them I will measure how much they have left (they are closer to new than worn out) and I am sure we can work out a fair deal.

    Greg
     
  13. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    @gsm348 , awesome to read that too.... I'm planning on tracking the car once or twice a year. Having said that, I do need to get new pads.
    I know what you mean about pads squeaking, I was in the same situation when I started tracking my Audi S4 back in the days. My wife never understood it!
    So I could offload your RS29 for cheap (as I'm going to use them once a year). Ti shims? haven't heard of that before... PM me, just in case.
    But still need a good set of pads for the street.

    Rich.
     
  14. kaamacat

    kaamacat Formula 3

    Jun 13, 2004
    1,623
    Cumming GA
    Full Name:
    BobR
    See if Carbotech makes a set for the car.... Try a XP12 in the front, XP10 in the rear. Very linear stopping and lightyears better than the factory Brembos. Minimal wear on the rotors, and unlike Hawks, they are not corrosive when dusting. (And if you want to step it down a bit go XP10 front/XP8 rear which are still excellent). I happen to like the Motul Brake fluids (600 or 660), and Castrol SRF ($$$) is about the best you will find out there. Just make sure to follow the bedding process, and by the end of the bedding, you will make that car want to stop on its nose...
     
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  15. apex97

    apex97 Formula Junior
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2006
    593
    Stockbridge, GA
    Full Name:
    Edward Zabinski
    We used Carbotech pads with good results on my SCCA 360 Challenge car, and then also had great luck with Performance Friction on our 430 Challenge cars, 5 SCCA National Championships.

    Both cars used stock 360 Challenge steel rotors and calipers per the SCCA rules. These provided fantastic brake feel with similar initial bite. The main difference for me on pads is the release. In fast driving, I think most of the magic happens between the beginning of brake release and the re application of full throttle so I am a picky bastard about that aspect of a brake system.

    It sounds to me like you have glazed that set of pads or possibly not bedded them properly. Toss them and try a fresh set of Carbotech or Performance friction pads and you should be fine.
     
  16. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    +1 glazed pads

    If you were looking for an upgrade the Brembo calipers and rotors from a 360 Challenge car are excellent. Rotor and hats are available inexpensively through Gyrodisc and they sell the same Raybestos compound pads used in NASCAR. Its an outstanding combination on track. RBF660 fluid is my choice.

    If your running the 360 quickly (lap times) on track the stock setup will work but will overheat very quickly. 2-3 hot laps will be OK, 4-5 and you will feel the pedal go away but it will still stop. The Challenge parts never overheat but they also have much better cooling ducts.

    Glad your enjoying your car, its beautiful!!!
     
  17. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    Thank you all for your educated guesses...! Glazed questionable pads is my final answer. Once I pull them off the car, I'll take a few shots to show you how shiny they are ;-)
    As I have 2-piece rotors all around but no obvious marking on the hat, not sure who manufactured them. I'm planning on tracking the car once or twice a year so I'm thinking of going with "Better street" pads and keep the rotors for now.
     
  18. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    If you don't mind, post a few pictures of the hats, close up on the fasteners that secure the rotor to hat, no need to remove a wheel, likely one of us has seen them before.
     
  19. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
  20. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Apr 30, 2014
    8,215
    IL
    Full Name:
    DRM
    The 360 Modena is an awesome street car. Still, it's a street car. Going balls out on a racing circuit is going to eat up brakes no matter what. Still, the fun might be worth the expense. Just realize you have to pay to play.

    Have fun.
     
  21. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2004
    1,863
    NAPLES
    You might want to evaluate your braking style. When I first started tracking my street car, I was burning up my brakes very quickly. I would hold the brake petal to long. I changed my style of braking by applying max pressure before the braking zone and release. You limit the time the brakes are engaged. Practicing this technic will increase brake efficiency.
     
  22. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    Those hats are not Brembo. They do look like the stock size gyro disc replacement to me. Its a great product just a bit too small for the track, great for the street. The 360 Challenge size is both larger and thicker and has thicker brake pads which insulate the calipers from the heat. I would call Mike at Gyro and have a conversation, he's the most knowledgeable brake person ive run into, and will b able to discuss options. He also runs a Ferrari at the track.
     
  23. Ingenere

    Ingenere F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 11, 2001
    6,336
    On the Limit
    Full Name:
    Dino
    I'm in the glazed pad group, but looking at your rotor it doesn't look like there is even wear on it. It might be the light, but an overall brake tune up could help.

    Either replace or resurface the rotors and switch to Carbotech pads. Go have fun and report back. I haven't had problems with Ferrari brakes. As has been stated, driving style plays a big role. I have a tendency to be very easy on equipment.
     
  24. bellwilliam

    bellwilliam Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2014
    398
    #24 bellwilliam, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    get new Brembo rotors, they are so cheap (about $100 each), might as well......

    as for pads. Carbotech (or G-Loc) is good, but they squeal loudly............ on street.

    if you are a beginner, say anything over 1:53 at Laguna in a 360. Stoptech is cheap and good for street. stock fluid is fine.
    if you are low intermediate to intermediate, say 1:45-1:53 at Laguna in a 360. G-Loc (people that left Carbotech) R12 is good. might want better fluid like Motul 660, SRF, etc...
    if you are a high intermediate to advance, say sub 1:4 at Laguna in a 360. G-Loc R18 or equivalent. must use good fluid like SRF

    SRF lasts a long time, it does not need to be bled as frequently as other track fluid.

    ATE Gold is okay (not good) for a 120whp Miata, not for your 360

    track pads needs to be bedded in properly.

    don't buy drilled rotors, it is a purely bling item (there are some exception, but not in our circle). Slotted is okay, only a little bling, don't do a thing for track.

    I mentioned G-Loc / Carbotech. a lot of racer uses them, because they have really good feel, great for brake release to control corner entry. But you can get other good track pads like PFC, Hawk (no, their HPS is not suitable for track), Porterfield, Pagid and few others.
     
  25. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,250
    FL
    One important point to remember-- Laguna Seca is probably the lowest grip track in the country. It makes all cars (including race cars) feel like they dont have good grip or braking power. The surface is very big aggregate so there is minimal contact between tire and track plus there is always sand blown on the track. Bring your same car to Watkins Glen or any other smooth surface track and your braking will be much better.
     

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