A visit to Newmans home of the boxer | FerrariChat

A visit to Newmans home of the boxer

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by boxerman, Nov 1, 2018.

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  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #1 boxerman, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    A small group of us (boxer owners) drove up to Canada this week to visit with Paul Newman. His hospitality and the time he took was second to none. Whats truly impressive is the attention to detail that Paul puts into each car he is working on, all the little things from fittings to clamps are simply done right and as the factory did. Paul's knowledge of the subtle differences between years, or even part years is encyclopedic.

    If you could send your boxer to a really really really detail orientated boxer owner who would service/repair yours, thats Paul.

    After Paul got permsiion from the owner he took me for a ride in a BBI he had built the motor for. This is the car with higher comp pistons and cams in another thread. The idle was as least as good as a stock car, the motor was certainly smoother everywhere, and while he was not yet ready to really get on it, the car was already clearly faster than a stock car, even with limited revs. I would say the pull and feeling of Tq at lower evs was more akin to a really strong american V8. If ever the time comes this will certainly be one boxer that will be able to redline in 5th, faster than a Tr for sure.

    As a BBI owner I will say that the highlight was drive in Newmans own Koening carbed boxer, one he kindly let me drive. The way this motor pulled and reved once past 3500 was something quite different. It literaly ate through the gears like a track car with a short ratio box. Somewhere around 5700 or so revs where a BBi is starting to slacken and go flat this car gets a second kick which you can feel, and it just angrily charges up to 7k like a motorcycle. Think Fireblade compared to Godwing.

    Perhaps its the small 215 section front tires, or the lowered Koning suspension, but this car steered with a lightness to the wheel and directness that I would never have expected any boxer capable of, it was simply light and weildly. To me this is the car the boxer should always have been. Hopefully Paul can tell us what those suspension specs and changes are, because its simply a different car to drive, and in every way better.

    i know how I will do mine when the redo comes, one that steers and rides like Newmans Koning, with the upgraded cams and pisitons like the 82 BBI he built. A BBI will never sound as good as the carbed koning, and wont quite have the snap, but its amazing how excellent these cars can be when properly and fully sorted, and Ive owned mine for 25 years.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login , these Newman cars were a revelation.
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  2. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

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    Newman is a tremendous attribute to the community and we are all very fortunate as Boxer owners to have someone with his knowledge and willingness to share among us.
     
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  3. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    You lucky bum. . . . . . . . . .


    Oh wait I was there too and also behind the wheel of his car, an absolute delight.

    Newmans world is a special place with special people including the extended family and friends.

    Hope the next time I see him is either in my rearview mirror or directly in front of me listening to his exhaust. :)
     
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  4. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  5. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    That Boxer is even sweeter than the maple syrup. Great stories guys!

    64 Galaxie. You still have a soft spot for those Fords I see...

    That must have been the one nice day before the rain returned yet again!!!
     
  6. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    A carbed Boxer! Exotic but still simple, with just what is necessary to be a fun car.
     
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  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The carbed koning steered with the lightness of a 308 or even better, that was a revelation, all our boxers should steer like this .

    Being a 64 model myself the 64 galaxie had special appeal, but I think boxers hit the sweetspot between, old and new.
    The car I would take home is Pauls boxer.
     
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  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    A speacial thanks to you Dave, the man who made it all happen and did the arrangements.
     
  9. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    Would have loved to attend that gathering....lucky guys you are!

    Best Peter
     
  10. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    great post guys.
     
  11. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I had a great 2 days with you guys! Wished I had enough Ferraris so we all could've had one to drive.
     
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  12. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    After being in Pauls boxers I took mine for a drive. Frankly in comparison mine feels like one cylinder is missing, its just slow in comparison. Any speed past 6300 rpm in 5th is slowly incremental at best as in you'd want a tail wind. The 17 in rims I have with modern tires definitely improve everythign from ride to grip, lets say that a slowish speed tail kickout was a non event akin to an old solid axle car. What it probably needs to steer like Pauls koning is to be lowered, esp in the rear, and narrower fronts(currently 245's) the 275 rears are great and solve one Bb problem.
     
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  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    So the solution is a warmed over engine that looks stock ;)
     
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  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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  15. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The solution is to close the circle and complete the last 5% of the job that the 70s got in ferraris way.
    As Newman pointed out the BBI cams from the factory are just a guess and a very conservative one. We also know that the pistons/rings are poor in these cars, and the comp ratio is actualy well below 9/1. These are all signs of a stressed ferrari in the 70s.

    For years we read you cant do cams in a BBI because of the FI system. Newmans redone motor started and idled just fine. The cams and pistons seemed to work just great. Headline Hp is one number, the spread of power and power curve is another and in many ways far more important to performance.

    People think nothing of replacing sodium valves with something that wont break, or using modern gasket material, or a better flowing exhaust. If you were redoing the motor no one would use the old valves, why use poor pistons or non optimized cams. You know the guys with older ferraris all optimize the same. It takes nothign away from the essence of the car, there are no visual differences. All its doing is making the Boxer fully realized.

    The other major drawback to a BBI is the tires. The BBI simply does not want the same width front and rear. The BBs were staggered, pretty much every mid engined car is. You want the rear planted and the front lithe. In period we read Enzo had some deal with Michelin for the F1 cars so the road cars got lumbered with TRX's, a tire designed for a 7 series comfort sedan. Arguably better rubber will lead to a transaxle blowout, the blowout can happen anyway as we have seen, which brings us to the next and final boxer weak link, the diff carrier, theres an upgrade for that too.

    So you can end up with a boxer that steers like a 308, has grip and ride with a motor that makes great Tq and revs all the way to 7k+ wile building power. In other words a boxer thats really better than a 288 to drive. Besides different wheels evrything else is basicaly stock/stock appearing and the car is no resto mod, just working as intended. If aftermarket wheels bother, and you wanted all ferrari I woudl say 15 in BB wheels on a BBI with modern Avon tires will work great and thats an option to considder.

    IMO ferrari never resolved the boxer past the BBi stage because a BB would never pass USA crash rules, was always going to have AC issues, and was always going to be too raw for USA volume.

    Instead what we got was a car designed to work in Miami for the 80s asthetic. A stretched BBI chassis in the TR, a motor with 4 valves designed to work with cats. The radiators had to be moved to the flanks, making the rear wider and heavier still. The TR is longer wider heavier softer machine, and even then it took a few iterations for ferrari to figure out the wheels/tires, power etc. A Tr can never be as light small or lithe as a BB, and its stylign while arrestign is no classic beauty, and ultimately its a creature of legislation.

    Ive driven my car for 25 years. And have always thought of what I would optimize or resolve. I akways read how the Bb motor was a cracker and the BBI while more driveable and more torquey lacked the punch on top which makes the earlier ferrari cars so appealing. We know how edgy a BBI can be at the limit. All of these issues are sympatheticaly resolvable.

    Its not a warmed over Motor, its a resolved motor and car.

    Anyone who tries a resolved boxer is going to pronounce it one of the true greats.
     
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  16. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran
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    Please don't tell me this Galaxie is a R code!
     
  17. xplodee

    xplodee Formula 3

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    Out of curiosity- is there a similar way to build a TR engine and produce the same effect of modernizing it?
     
  18. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    390
     
  19. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Yes you can upgrade it using the same approach I used on the injected boxer. To begin with the Testarossa cams are way too tame.
     
  20. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

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    Can you get more aggressive cams?
     
  21. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I have cams made to suit the application but it would be part of a purpose built engine rebuild, not just cams.
     
  22. 53ford

    53ford Karting

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    You could always just drop in an f113G motor. I heard those work OK. Cheers to you Paul. Still running the **** out of mine. Bernie.
     
  23. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    The would be a 512M crate engine for those who don't know. They rev like a motorcycle!
     

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