My opinion is that the issue has to do with the cooling design. The length of pipe is 7-8 times longer in the Cali compared to the 458 488. Also the diameter of the coolant pipe should be larger than it is. All of this results in hotter temps which greatly accelerate failure of heat sensitive components such as plastic sensors. My theory is supported by the fact that the Portofino has a different cooling design. Anyone want to guess at where the DCT cooling radiator is located?
...under the driver's seat? Just kidding . Yes, I agree with your opinion and assessment. I'd also be interested to know about the PF cooling system design and layout. If anyone, the factory would know of and would have the ability to address issues with the cooling system of the California models.
It appears that most of not all DCT issues were resolved with the California T at least I’ve not heard of any other then a post on here about some other sensor that had an issue in a 2015 model but if I recall correctly it wasn’t a speed sensor. I can’t seem to find the document I was reading reguarding the Portofino but I do recall it stated the Portofino was using a gen 3 DCT. Of course that could mean a lot of different things but I would also guess that perhaps the California T perhaps was fitted with a gen 2 DCT( along with more then likely the 488, Lusso Ect and possibly other 2015 models including the 458). I also absolutely do not dispute that the majority of the California DCT failures are directly related to heat build up, just mentioned other “issues” I have read about and heard about some of which could also be directly linked to heat buildup. Some of us have had some heated debates about what causes most failures and I am not looking to rehash that here just passing on information I’ve gathered. Also for what ever it is worth, while any California up to model year 2014 can have the failure 2010 models appear to be the majority, in what data I have access to, and it also appears that 2013 and 14 models when experiencing it in most cases aren’t as crippled possibly due to the larger heat exchange (though speed sensors are still probably damage and in need of replacing). 4th gear has done some pretty extensive research into the DCT and it’s subsequent components and referenced diagrams in several other posts. His research and experience with the car pretty clearly indicates there is indeed a heat issue. He has even given very good advice on how to run cool down runs and other added things to help drop temps. With all that said it sure would be nice if there were a way to upgrade earlier cars to eliminate the heat issues such as an updated cooling pipe with a larger diameter and integrating the larger heat exchanger from later builds of California 30 models. And on a final note the DCT was new and as such it is expected to have some issues and bugs with new hardware. When it works it works very well. Just too bad there are several cars that can and will have issues down the road and have the potential to scare new owners away from the brand.
I think adding radiator cooling surface area would be even better. I did a bit of work with the rear undertrays of my car when I upgraded all the silly diffuser parts to carbon fibre and I noticed there is ample space to attach an extra air<->coolant radiator under the oil<->coolant heat exchanger. The forward undertray would need to feature some scoops and the rear trays would need vents. In fact, you could instead just incorporate massive cooling fins onto the oil<->coolant heat exchanger body and vent the heated air. Incorporating this sort of air cooling may also even improve the ground effects. Actually, the whole area around the DCT could do with a bit of ducted-air cooling whereas it is currently simply closed-off to provide a clear path for undercarriage air to reach the diffuser. It's not uncommon for high performance cars to feature scoops to redirect the air for cooling. Heated air is actually useful for increasing ground effects when properly directed. Unfortunately, this sort of upgrading is not being offered at least for now, and really only for an enthusiast with metal and CF fabrication experience along with a bit of silly money to research and attempt on his own car. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The California is now three generations old. I’m not sure that it can really be seen today as scaring people from the brand. Maybe just giving people pause about buying a used first gen Cali. As far as addressing the issue in 8-9 year old cars. We’ve discussed replacing the cooling radiator with a larger box and then upgrading he cooling plumbing with larger pipes and maybe adjusting the idle to run a little higher so as to increase the pumping. As far as the PF, the radiator has been moved from the front of the car to the rear. This means that the coolant run is very much shorter.
Thanks, looks like the factory has also had second thoughts about the space behind the DCT. It would be interesting to look at schematics of the PF when they become available. I'm wondering how different that area in the PF is compared to the Cali's, after all the exhaust pipes, mufflers are in the same locations, suspension layout the same and aside from the diffuser and trunk there's nothing else ...you know what I mean. Another thing the factory should really do is make the car run its fans and coolant pumps after the car is parked. My LT Spider does this, heck even my old 4-cylinder '82 Scirocco used to do this with its radiator fan. It would save me having to walk around directing my cordless leaf blower on a hot day. If the factory were really smart they would link this function to the battery tender circuit, whereby the fans and pumps automatically go on and run till temperatures return to "factory spec" so long as the battery tender is attached. This would also encourage owners to take better care of their cars.
MalibuGuy, I hope you are not affected by the wildfires in your area and that the situation improves soon. Take care!
Thank you for the kind thoughts Many people I know have lost their homes and many prized possessions. Fortunately there were very few fatalities. So life goes on.
I'm glad to know you're OK. It's scary to contemplate being suddenly caught in a wildfire. Sad to learn of these misfortunes but adversity can often serve to cleanse and spur new life.
Update - the dealer advised that she needs a new clutch pack ( of course the service manager claims he thought this last time, but the factory wouldn’t approve it last time ) repairs should be done in a week or two .
That's good news. However, "needing a new clutch pack" does not actually explain what was wrong. Service shops love to do part swaps nowadays. Just replace the whole stupid thing. Very few garages actually do detective work, figure out WHY something failed then actually fix the reason WHY it failed BEFORE replacing the actual (broken) component. Unless this is done you remain in the dark and you cannot avoid a repeat. The next clutch pack will not be covered under the current warranty. The most important question to ask is always WHY? It is only with understanding that you can avoid a repeat. It doesn't even matter if you sell the car because your next car, even a new or different model, may experience a similarly baffling and expensive issue. I would insist on a full explanation - it's your right as the owner. You should not be expected to just lump it. You are not even being compensated for the waste of your time and loss of use. They need to AT LEAST explain in detail. Good luck!
Michael, Sorry to inconvenience you, but I deeply respect your knowledge and I'd like to ask you something: Over at the 458 section, we were also discussing clutch overheating/DCT sensor failures. I believe most failures are caused by heat. When we turn off the car, that's the point in which temperatures are at their peak, as there's no ventilation: no air rushing in, no lubricants passing by. Heat gets somewhat "trapped" As a rule, upon parking at my garage, I immediately open up the engine compartment lid and then point a simple household fan at it. I believe it helps heat to escape faster, prevents temperatures from soaring (namely in the summertime, where air temperatures often rise above 35ºC over here) and the kind of cooling the fan brings isn't enough to create such a temperature difference that would lead, for instance, to cracking of materials. I know the airflow generated by the fan won't be enough to get directly to the gearbox, only the top of the engine bay, but stil... Do you think this does harm, actually may help on the long run or it's utterly pointless? Thank you in advance and sorry once again. Kindest regards, Nuno.
As a computer engineer I’ll venture an opinion on the electronics. Pointless. DCT thermal sensor fails are likely an interconnect problem or a diode failure in situ. Designer should have built redundancy in to mitigate failure modes. Diodes are cheap. As in pennies. If an internal interconnect problem then smart design would have some redundancy as well. Cost of opening the box FAR exceeds the cost of components. They should have designed it to be essentially sealed except in catastrophic failure. Just MHO. My FF had a thermal sensor DCT failure that was intermittent. Never caused a operational problem but it got progressively worse. Came to the end of the warranty and had it repaired. SV
Hi Nuno, I appreciate your experiences and comments. I wish we had better data and good information on this topic of concern but given this situation if we still want to do something about it, we can only use our wits and whatever "device(s)" we have at our disposal. I know heat is the primary cause of material and component failure in equipment, both mechanical and electrical. Excessive heat accelerates the degradation of all materials and and the longer you heat something, the faster and the greater the amount of degradation, however imperceptible we may feel it is. It's just "physics". As regards how much air circulation affects the rate of DCT cooling for a stationary car, try observing how fast your garage cools with the garage doors closed vs opened, after you park your car. IMO the final answer to your question may depend partly on your personality, whether you are inherently active vs passive, picky vs casual and... it's also a bit like the argument for or against cooling down your Fcar over the last 1-2 miles of driving as well as your preference for running in a new engine vs just giving it the full beans from its first mile of use.
Not rare? my 458 has done this since day one. the warning light will come on before I back out of the garage. dealer has been reluctant to replace the sensor
If your car is still under warranty I’d sure make them remedy the issue or you will be on the hook for repairs. It could be that your dealer doesn’t have a tech trained to open the gearbox, but it’s strange they are reluctant to at least swap the gearbox. And while I wouldn’t call it a rare issue the size sample we have to gauge the issue here is quite small though there are plenty of first gen California, 458 and FF ( and any other car fitted with the gear box ) that have the same DCT that have had no issue. It does appear the California has suffered from the issue more then the other vehicles. So if say 5% of all cars with the gear box ( and this is a very generous number) then the issue is indeed rare. I can admit if I had a car that had an issue with the gear box and the dealer was reluctant to repair the issue I’d probably be pretty upset myself. Hope you can get some satisfaction from your dealer since it is a known issue with a repair option.
Interesting comment and I agree any sealed design should incorporate some sort of redundancy for cheap components but how would a redundant system determine if one of the sensors has incorrectly triggered due to "an interconnect problem or a diode failure"? Would it require presence of at least 3 sensors, requiring simultaneous triggers from at least 2 sensors to qualify a legitimate event? By "an interconnect problem" I assume you include cold solder joints and "diode failure(s)" basically a fried diode.
It depends on how elaborate the software manages the thermal monitoring. In some computer systems we create virtual readouts that incorporate multiple sensors into one value. Therefore the system can identify non catastrophic failures for diagnostic purposes but continue to run. Assuming no additional failures the system can run a long time. Interconnects can include cables, connectors and their associated joints and receivers and drivers. It includes physical damage due to wear and abrasion and signal integrity. SV Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
same problem, mine just today came back from service$$$$ and it happened on my way home from there 1/2 hour later.... My guess, the service guy is an idiot!
