488 Pista - qualifying demands | Page 14 | FerrariChat

488 Pista - qualifying demands

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Doctor Mark, Oct 18, 2018.

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  1. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    I agree with you. Good post.
     
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  2. boobernackle

    boobernackle Formula Junior

    May 28, 2016
    951
    Trade numbers are incredibly car specific. Load up on a $380-400K spider with metallic paint + cosmetic CF and you will get hosed. Spec a Ferrari properly and your losses won't be anywhere close to what you mentioned.
     
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  3. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    You can say this for any of the special/ limited cars. Is a 599 GTO worth more than 2x a GTB? Is a Speciale really worth 2x an Italia? Or an Speciale A worth probably 3x a 458 Spider?

    I can go a lot faster than your 488 for a fraction of the cost with a Corvette or other.

    Its all about what captures your imagination and where you place value. I understand your opinion, but the market place is made up of many opinions and the market place is saying: yes! a 599 GTO is worth it over a GTB. Yes! A Speciale is worth it over an Italia. And yes! A Pista is worth it over a 488 GTB. In the case of the Pista we won't really know the longer term market take until we get more time.

    Without the benefit of having driven the Pista its hard for me to say, but I really appreciate what they have done with the Pista. Its quite extreme and that's something I value. I am hoping the driving experience goes along with that and is more involving and emotional than the GTB, which I find a little bit too GT oriented.

    When you think of the super car level performer, what kind of power do you think it will have and what kind of price level do you think it will occupy. I don't know, but Ferrari knows its market very well. They are not stupid. I would imagine the answer to both power and price to be a big step over the Pista. Thus protecting the Pista level.

    I can't sit here and tell you the Pista will make huge appreciation, on the other hand, I don't think it will take a deep dive in value either. Maybe I will be wrong, but based on what I have read, and been told by those who have driven them, the car is "epic". How Ferrari manages to do this so consistently is clearly the result of hard work and a fantastic team at the top of their game, but in the end I think when you are that good, it comes across as magic.
     
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  4. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
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    excellent post
     
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  5. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    I don't think anyone knows the answer since it's not clear how much the dealer calls the shots and how much Ferrari does. I bought a new untitled Cali T HS because I wanted a 488 Spider at MSRP, this was in March 2017 when the 488 Spider still held the current Pista status with buyers. I was given an allocation for the 488 Spider but decided that I liked the Cali T HS enough to keep it for a year. When I started looking around to replace it, I thought I might go for a 2015 458 Spider but my dealer didn't have one I liked and he wouldn't bring one in. Instead, the salesman urged me to order the 488 Spider. I configured one I liked for $340k but continued looking.

    I didn't have to look long because by this May, the bloom was off the 488 Spider market as the Pista talk was all over the place. I got a delivery mile 2018 mule Spider from another dealer. It was only a $320k spec and I paid $330k, no CF anywhere except the steering wheel. That stuff is the quickest way to lose money on the car, it depreciates like a rock no matter what anyone tries to claim. CF is fluff, all for the dealer and Ferrari but people that like it apparently will spend the money to get it in their Ferrari. My 991TTS had a complete CF trim package at no extra cost, LOL!

    I lost $65k on the Cali T HS but the dealer is still trying to sell it for $15k more than I got on trade after 6 months. I think I did OK as I have enjoyed both cars. I think Ferrari is making too many cars to keep playing this "special" game. I am not going to be part of it now that you can get a new model car off the showroom floor for MSRP or less. The Pista people are sure they are getting something special and it is, for now but for how long is the key point.
     
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  6. kevin1244

    kevin1244 Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2008
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    It simply is not true that Pista has only cosmetic changes. I seriously recommend you search the differences in engine components and the added aero benefits of what you call cosmetic changes. Many elements are borrowed from the 488 GTE /challenge race cars. They started this with the CS and have continued with every special model since: Scud, Speciale, and now Pista. I'd have to say the CS has the purest form of it. There are many articles and also YouTube videos about the differences.
     
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  7. boogie

    boogie Karting

    Mar 4, 2016
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    The "game" is simple. There are "commodity" cars like the 488 and special edition cars like the Pista. Prices paid are a combination of the quality of the cars and the supply/demand imbalance. The Pista price based on quality alone would be less if the supply weren't limited.
     
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  8. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    To those getting a Pista dont fret the car will be epic. If you can afford it, buy it and enjoy it. Dont hope for some silly appreciation though, that may or may not be the case but shouldn't matter. I am still hoping to get one, I think it will happen next year but I am not 100% as I did not go for the Lusso. I will have the early allocation for a 750LT so not sweating it either way.
     
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  9. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    If CF is “fluff”then I guess so is paint, carpets, shields, nicer wheels, CF wheels, stripes on Speciale and CS....ok.
     
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  10. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Truly
     
  11. JohnTz

    JohnTz Karting

    Jun 21, 2018
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    I did research the differences extensively. I am an Aeronautical Engineer by formal training and education. I understand aero better then most people. I also understand that the differences you point out will not be felt and appreciated by the vast majority of drivers compared to the 488 in most driving situations including track time. If your skills are that advanced then congratulations. I’m not even close.

    The extensive engine differences you point out result in minimal true output power of the two cars. That is 49 HP. Less than 7%. My only point was that these differences are not worth the price differences of the two cars for me and I chose not to play. Just my choice and it’s not the right choice for everyone. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your recommendation for me to research my opinion more.

    Now I eagerly await the car between the 488 replacement and LF. That should have the uplift in performance in aero and output that will be interesting.
     
  12. kevin1244

    kevin1244 Formula Junior

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    I did not mean to offend you at all. I am glad you understand the differences. I am an engineer and a physicist (post graduate), so your words are not lost on me! As you pointed out, the HP /torque increases of Pista vs 488 or the additional aero may not justify the price increase to everyone. From that perspective, many of the past special models should not be justifiable to many people either, as CS, Scud, and Speciale were not that different than their original models either. Arguably, Ferrari can claim that they have included much more of their race car technologies into Pista; thus the increased delta price of the Pista vs 488 as compared to the predecessors. As a CS owner, I can attest to this about 360 vs CS in comparison. Further, there are more carbon pieces incorporated into Pista (aside from the cosmetic bits and pieces that can be de selected to bring the delta price well down) that are purely for weight reduction. The magic is in the increased power/weight ratio, cornering capabilities, and the overall performance of Pista on a track, which come as a result of the combination of the above presented in the "Pista package" vs any individual components of it. The price is then accordingly justified; it's called value pricing, meaning one should not simply add the cost of all the different components and come up with a MSRP for Pista vs that of a 488. One must pay for all the research and development that go into delivering such a car as well. The improved aero should not be disregarded either. In the end, the aero does matter for the stats of the car, top speed or cornering g's, or other aspects that these cars are measured by. Despite the fact that I am a track junkie and I am not so terrible at it either, I agree that I cannot perhaps take the Pista or 488 to their limits; but that is not the point of this car; in the hands of "the capable" Pista can do wonders as compared to 488; that is the point of this car and if anyone is buying it, they are paying for those merits. From a price delta stand point, other brands are no different; on the surface, the difference between a 911 GT2(3) RS and a 911 are not that much either, the price delta however, percentage-wise, is much worse than Pista vs 488...just my $0.02!
     
  13. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    I don’t see the difficulty in small details making a big difference. I owned 360 and CS, 458 and Speciale. The differences are small on paper, night and day behind the wheel. The same as a meal that can be made sensational by one small ingredient - salt - not only its inclusion but getting exactly the right amount.

    Maybe a better example is chilli pepper in a Chcken Madras. Small ingredient, massive power to make the dish - get it right and it is fabulousl, without and it’s not worth the bother. But some would prefer it without, to them the heat becomes a bit uncomfortable and unpleasant. Same applies to the CS, Scud, Speciale and Pista. And that’s ok.

    As for the aero, I think you mainly feel the benefit at high speed where a car becomes more ‘planted’ and less flighty, at which point I believe it’s quite important. Around slower speed corners, mere mortals won’t get much benefit, maybe not even the professionals. Mechanical grip is more important at slower speeds, which happily the Pista has more of too. Part of the genius of these cars is that they have much higher mechanical grip yet they are still just as friendly and adjustable, playful even, on the limit. This is often not the case with other high-grip performance cars, especially in the past. The additional mechanical grip comes mainly from the tyres, which you could argue you could simply add on the standard 488. However, a lot of time and energy is focused on calibrating the car to the tyre so the effect of just adding the Pista-specific cup tyre to the 488 won’t be quite the same. Again, small details can have a big impact.

    In context though, a 458 Italia v 458 Speciale v 458 Challenge in terms of driving feel is like 60% v 70% v 100%. If you want to say a Pista will be nowhere near as good to drive as the 488 Challenge, I wholeheartedly agree with that. But in real world driving, the small changes to the Pista will make a whole world of difference to the way the car feels, even if the laptime proves to be only marginally better.
     
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  14. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    No one need justify his purchases.
    You love it, you buy it; you don’t, then don’t.
     
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  15. boogie

    boogie Karting

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    And as other than a "special edition" that performance won't come with jumping through hoops to get an allocation and the scarcity premium.

    Ferrari's pricing this scarcity premium for the SE cars at closer to market and increasing supply for the standard cars means the days of flipping them as "investments" are likely over and this is now a sucker's game.

    There is also a premium paid to spec any car, especially with the expensive options, and for the "latest and greatest." As soon as there's a newer option than the Pista it will see some depreciation.

    Bottom line: If you want to invest in Ferraris buy the stock. Otherwise buy what you like and drive, with eyes open.
     
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  16. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

    Dec 9, 2014
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    Most decisions are based on emotion and justified by logic. If your heart desires the Pista, all kinds of justifications for purchasing it will be created. Furthermore, as with most commodities, there is the law of diminishing returns. Once a high level of quality is achieved, improving upon that will require an inordinately higher purchase price than going from an adequate product to a better one. In the case of the Pista, if we quantify the improvement over a 488 to a percentage, it might be 15%, yet the price increase will be in the vicinity of 50%.
     
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  17. Doctor Mark

    Doctor Mark Formula Junior

    Dec 15, 2005
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    What percent of Pista buyers will be tracking the car compared with the percent who want it for an ego boost as the "latest and greatest." Do not know the answer and frankly it matters little.
    If you can afford to and wish to play the game go for it. Too rich for my blood.
    My issue is not with the Pista price per se but with the idea of having to buy a car you do not wish to be "eligible" to buy it. That to me in BS.
    However, it is a free market and they have the right to do as they choose to maximize profit.
     
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  18. BlueCorsa

    BlueCorsa Rookie

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    If Ferrari warranty doesn’t cover track use, what’s the point of improved performance in the Pista?
     
  19. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

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    So you can whiz around faster then the novices at the dealer track days -:) which are the ones that are covered.

    Outside of a ferrari sponsored event then no coverage on any ferrari car for track purposes.
     
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  20. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    Most Ferrari owners will limit the miles driven on their cars for fear of depreciation. How many will actually take their car on a track when not only will the factory warranty not cover any damage resulting there from, but the mere fact that the car was tracked will lead to greater depreciation upon resale. So the excitement over the Pista compared to the 488 is due to the former being more track capable? Who is kidding whom?
     
  21. kevin1244

    kevin1244 Formula Junior

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    I will definitely track the car and frankly the depreciation of it won't matter to me. I doubt if you don't over rev the car and operate within the operation limits of various devices on the car, Ferrari would not cover any mechanical failures.
     
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  22. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    I would think this would be the case.
     
  23. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    i've been following this thread all along and i cant just walk in and order a pista ? wtf
     
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    I don't think a DCT will let you cause any actual harm. The programmed logic won't allow it.

    That said, I'm sure they can analyze the data to determine whether or not a mechanical failure is due to wear and tear or not. They know if your 10K miles are highway miles or track miles.
     
  25. kevin1244

    kevin1244 Formula Junior

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    Yes, I am sure they will know if a car is tracked or not; but if the car is within its operational limits, no warranty coverage could be denied. Even if it is fine or bold printed somewhere, such argument won't hold in any court if someone decided to take that route.
     

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