Clutch overheating | FerrariChat

Clutch overheating

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by Andynyc, Aug 24, 2018.

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  1. Andynyc

    Andynyc Formula Junior
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    Apr 20, 2017
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    I was driving home from work today and got a clutch overheating message. I drive fast, but never tracked . 2013 Cali. Anyone else have this happen?
     
  2. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    Yep. In an FF.

    Turned out the DCT had to be serviced as the sensor was failing.

    Had to be serviced with new sensors. Covered under warranty.

    SV
     
  3. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

    Jun 10, 2018
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    Keith A
    Any other news about this?
     
  4. Andynyc

    Andynyc Formula Junior
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    To give an update on my situation, the service manager at my local dealership told me that’s a very rare error code, might have just been a random glitch but if it occurs again take it in for service. I have driven back and forth to work again a couple times since it occurred, so far so good it has not repeated .
     
  5. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    Mine first manifested on sharp turns such as a tight cloverleaf Highway entry. Eventually it got worse but always happened spontaneously and immediately went away.

    SV


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  6. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Michael
    That's interesting. Usually when you get a warning code on a high G turn, it's due to oil starvation (in the engine). High centripetal forces will push lubricants up the outside wall of the oil pan or engine block. If the lubricant level is a bit low this will prevent oil from getting picked up by the oil recirculation system and (the engine) will run slightly dry for a brief moment (assuming you are not on an oval... in a race).

    A lack of oil will cause increase in friction, which raises the temperature. This will trigger the heat sensor(s). If this happens to an engine, the ECU will likely retard ignition and the engine will lose revs, power and stumble while this is happening. I suspect if it happens to a DCT, the ECU will prevent gear changes and may also retard the throttle position until the heat sensor(s) indicate temperatures have returned to normal.

    Proper lubricant levels are important to maintain. Since DCTs are sealed, lubricant levels should not change. You may want to do a close examination of the DCT casing and look for any signs of a leak.
     
  7. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    IIRC the earlier DCTs had cabling issues that caused these errors. Wear in the sheathing and it would tend to confirm a motion trigger to the fault. More wear results in more triggers which is what did happen. Never caused a functional issue tho.

    Never had any leaks in the car.

    SV


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  8. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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  9. Andynyc

    Andynyc Formula Junior
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    It happened to me again today . Dealer will pick the car up on Monday . I’m happy about the timing, because my warranty ends in December so I’m glad it broke now instead of after December!
     
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  10. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    Absolutely. Again, you should ask the service shop to provide a full report on what they found. They also need to tell you what OBD II pcode(s) they read off the car. Don't settle for some vague answer. The OBD II error codes are in this format, "Pnnnn", where "n" is a numeric digit. Once you have the pcode(s) you gain 3 advantages:

    1 - you can look up the pcode(s) descriptions, see what conditions trigger them and understand the problem without having someone else put a spin on it
    2 - you then have information that allow you to ask very direct questions based on your understanding of the problem
    3 - if your car throws the same pcode(s) again after your warranty expired you have a good case that the original problem(s) were not properly resolved under warranty.

    Good luck!
     
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  11. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

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    Exactly... I think that is "just" the speed sensor. So might be something that they just replace now, but definitely keep us posted.
     
  12. Andynyc

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    To follow up, dealer said it was simply low fluid, got her back yesterday. I will try to drive her a few times this week and next week to see if any further issues , even though I got a new car that I have been itching to drive instead lol. But I really want to make sure the problem is corrected and it’s not a sensor issue because the warranty is done in December and I was not planning on extending warranty.
     
  13. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    I suppose this news is better than feared.

    However, while I did mention earlier that low DCT (clutch) fluid levels would raise operating temperatures we have to wonder why the clutch fluid level got low to begin with. If your garage floor shows no sign of oil leaks then I think your dealer owes you an explanation.

    It would be very useful to find out why this situation happened (at all) as I don't ever recall any of my cars ever developing a loss of lubricant in over 40 years of car ownership. I do not believe the DCT was designed to require periodic topping up of DCT clutch fluid levels. So driving the car a few times is not necessarily going to determine if the problem has been corrected If your dealer only topped up the clutch fluid level and doesn't know how it got low.
     
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  14. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    The fluid should never get low. The transmission is a sealed unit. There are two halves, one that has the mechanical parts of the transmission (gears, synchros, shift forks, etc) and is lubricated with special gear oil. The other half is the hydraulic portion with all of the shift solenoids, valves and clutches which is lubricated with special atf. The two fluids should never leak out or mix with each other. If one is getting low, then it is leaking externally or internally into the other half (which is death to the transmission).
    The dealer may not know what is going on or is blowing you off. I would drive the crap out of the car before the warranty is up to make sure that the problem is fixed. My guess is that it still has a bad clutch temperature sensor. Even with low fluid, it should never get hot enough to cause that warning.
     
  15. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    The dealer needs to provide you a full report, including how they decided that it was "low fluid" and why they think they "fixed" it.

    Do not ever assume some vague answer or explanation of any fix is sufficient. All service should be accompanied by paperwork with clear detailed explanations and list of labour hours, any parts and their costs, even if they are covered by warranty (final billed amount just shows $0.00). This information is invaluable for you to document (and claim) any warranty work which may recur after warranty expiration as well as allow you to gauge costs of any future work out of warranty. I get a full detailed report from my dealers every time my cars are serviced.
     
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  16. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

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    I would agree... I am taking mine in tomorrow and definitely seems like the speed sensor, which is likely a pain in the ass. Make sure that you keep an eye on it. My speed sensor seems to be triggered about every fifth time I drive the car. I will keep everyone updated. I have 34K miles on mine and is a FF, but seems to be a problem with both cars.
     
  17. Andynyc

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    So it happened to me again today, so my car will be going back to the dealer shortly. As mentioned by several others above, it does seem like my service dept fed me a bunch of bs and did not really do anything . I suspect you are all correct and it’s that sensor .

    Interestingly I put about 800 miles on the car 2 weekends ago, right after I got it back from the dealer and had no issues . But that was all long distance highway cruising . Had not driven her since then until today. On my ride in to work this morning ( in spirited driving, lot of shifting and high revs ) got clutch overheating message again. Worst part was to have to let the Infiniti chasing me pull ahead of me after that lol.

    I will keep this thread posted on the outcome!
     
  18. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

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    So tough end of it is that they quoted me 18K to do the sensor fix along with the seals. I chose to find a replacement gearbox, which will be going in next week. I wish that I had better news, but this is by far the worst issue that I have had with the car.
     
  19. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    Where was this estimate quoted? Seems like depending on location the sensor replacement cost varies widely
     
  20. specialkcu

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    I am in Denver. It does seem very widespread and oddly inconsistent. The new gearbox was not all that more expensive than what they quoted for the repair, so figured it would be a better option moving forward. Hoping the car has a better 2019 haha.
     
  21. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

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    When getting service quotations, one should carefully assess the number of hours of labour or total labour price quoted as well as the cost of the parts and hopefully compare those numbers to the actual cost of a similar repair. Here is a copy of the work order (sensor replacement) that a fellow FChat member, Tides, paid for back in April, 2016. The blue lines indicate the labour and parts costs (plus $50 in miscellaneous supplies).

    Keith, if you have an actual paper quotation from Denver, could you please post it because it might promote better understanding and honest service for other owners if we can compare quotations? Much of the problem with DCT repairs is that owners have no clue where and how much the costs being quoted are coming from. People just get a quote or a bill and have to leave it or lump it. It shouldn't be that way.

    Please let us know how much you end up paying for the replacement DCT and installation. Knowledge + understanding is power.

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  22. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

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    I sure understand your train of thought, and thanks for the info. Are you sure the price they quoted you was replacement of the sensor and not teplacement of DCT wth antemanifactured unit? It’s my understanding that if a Ferrari dealer does not have a mechanic certified to do the sensor repair they usually quote replacing the gearbox with a remanifactured unit. I don’t know what it would cost to have your car shipped to Dallas but I think Boardwalk does have mechanics trained to open the gearboxes and replace the sensor.

    On the hoping you get a 2019 gearbox, I’m not entirely sure what changed in the gearboxes or how they would retrofit in an older car but it’s my understanding that as far as the DCT goes the 09 to 14 cars are the first gen DCT, 2015 to end of California t production is a second gen DCT and I read that the portofino will have a gen 3 DCT.

    It appears that what ever the issue was, many believe it was a cooling issue and there is plenty of evidence to back it up, was eliminated with the release of the second gen DCT for the California t. I also know the on the 13 and 14 California they added a different larger heat exchanger that while the issue can and obviously in your case does occur it isn’t quite as crippleing as the earlier models. However replacement of the sensors is still required. The service manager didn’t entirely lie to you as the failures don’t happen on 13 and 14 cars very often and while it sure seems like it happens a lot the actual failure rate on the California is small with the worst issues aperently on MY 2010.

    After all this I guess I’m getting at basically if a gen 2 DCT will still work in your car that one would probably be the one to get. Good luck with your car, let us know what you find out.
     
  23. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

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    Thanks for everyones input. I am requesting the full estimate so that I can share it with everyone. Here was the full diagnosis, which still seems like it is the speed sensor as described above...

    "The even gears speed sensor does not read accurately. The even gear clutch basket leaches hydraulic fluid under pressure past the seals and into the odd clutch basket causing the car to shift into an odd gear without warning."

    I have been talking to Steve at boardwalk about the issue as well.
     
  24. specialkcu

    specialkcu Rookie

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    Mine is obviously an FF, but seems to be a common issue with gearboxes from those years. I didn't lose the odd gears completely, but it would be nice to know what others have paid or have encountered the same issue. Seemed to be an issue after about 20 minutes of driving and would trigger the warning.
     
  25. azlin75

    azlin75 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2017
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    Steve and the folks at boardwalk know their stuff so I’d trust what ever they say and I know they have helped several folks out with this issue. If I understand correctly the DCT used in the FF 458 and California is identical. While failures in the FF and 458 occur less then the California it’s still an issue with all the first generation gearboxes. I wonder if the fluid leaking you described is the main underlying issue I’m most of these failures or if it is the sensors. I’ve even heard stories of the wires insulation chafing and shorting. It could be a combination of all 3 and them some. With any new tech you have growing pains and it sure seems like with subsequent generations the issues are resolved. It also seems like the repairs made as of this date more or less resolve the issue unlike earlier repairs which seems there was the possibility of the issue reoccurring. What ever the issue is I hope your car gets sorted and you are back on the road soon, good luck and thanks for the updates.
     
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