My (Bob) Norwood Experience

Well Done !! Almost bought a car from him 10 years ago but something did not feel right. Vetted him somewhat and discovered little to be desired.

Regarding the center console, I don't know how anyone could possible pass that off as acceptable workmanship. That's purely a don't give a sh!!t attitude.

 

You just gave a great argument for why I think litigation is a really bad idea here.

Let's assume Russ is right about everything, and he can prove it. Norwood jacked his car up completely, damaged resale value, misled him, etc etc...the whole banana boat party.

So Russ hires another lawyer and sues. Norwood (who we can assume will fight because he has already used the fact that he's embroiled in another drawn out legal battle to encourage Russ to pay the extra 25k he wants) fights him. Maybe Norwood even counter sues for defamation. Who knows. It's a cluster####. Assuming it goes to court and finishes within a year, which would actually be quick in my experience, Russ could very easily run up another $100k in legal fees. Ok, so at the end of a year, after endless stress and grief, which probably detracts from his family life and general happiness on a day to day basis - Russ wins! Yay Russ! The judge awards him his car, damages, legal fees, Norwood's 6 feral cats, the whole thing. Then Norwood declares bankruptcy and settles his debts for pennies on the dollar. What does Norwood care? He'll restructure under a different name and continue doing business with clients who trust him. NO stigma to it. Hell, in this day and age he could call it "a demonstration of the greatest business skills EVER" and run for president. Russ, on the other hand, has now spent almost a quarter million dollars on a kit car which nobody in their right mind would buy with someone else's money. If he's lucky he gets what, 10% back if Norwood restructures?

To me that seems like the best case scenario if Russ sues. He loses way more than he already has and gets his screwed up car back.

Russ, I may seem like I'm being a jerk but I'm really trying to be a voice of reason. The same voice in your head that is telling you to sue Norwood is also the voice that told you it was a good idea to buy two lost cause project Ferrari's sight unseen online, both of which you took big losses on. Please, for your own sake, do not listen to that voice anymore.

With the money you're going to spend on legal fees, and probably not get back, you could walk into a reputable dealer and buy a very nice stock 360, 430, 456, 308, whatever, that actually runs and performs like it's supposed to.

Edit: it really does seem like Norwood jacked up your car, but in terms of moving forward I don't see that helping you much.

 

Parting it out seems like a losing deal as well, because that's also work and so much of the car isn't stock.

If he pays the additional $25k, he's in for about $128k, I think. Then he has to pay to have the car transported, store it somewhere, have all the fluids drained, have the car disassembled, have all the parts inventoried, pay a reliable mechanic to identify which parts are good and which are broken, damaged, or modified (thus worthless). Then he has to store those parts while he markets them.

If you take the fact that many parts of this car are unoriginal or damaged, or not full sets (like the gauges), or modified (those seats, the red crinkle instrument cluster fascia) and then add the man hours for extracting, sorting and selling what's left, I can't see how he comes out ahead by parting the car out. He'd have to make back at least the extra 25k delta + the added expense of everything listed above by parting what's saleable in order to break even with walking away. Not sure that's doable in this case.

Walk. It sucks but it's the best move.

 

I guess as a guy who own a trailer, knows how to tow (though anyone can rent a traile from U-Haul), take things apart (and put them together) myself, as well as evaluate the condition of a part, I take alot of what you say for granted as effectively zero cost. Perhaps if Russ does not have the tools, trailers, or skillset to do so himself, he could have a “dis-assembly party” with friends that do. I have to imagine that he has a friend with a trailer as well...

Point being, I wouldnt walk from the $100k with nothing. I would take the car for another $25k. You could probably sell it to an exotic car parts place etc... they will pick it up, and get more than $25k for it without doing a thing.

 

Fair enough. I see that. The way I look at it is, even if you know how to do all the work yourself, your man hours have value. How long does it take to do all of that work? I genuinely don't know, but I know roughly how much I make hourly based on averaging my income out over the year, and I can tell you I'd rather walk away from the headache and just go make more money.

If it were a stock Ferrari that could be easily (or even uneasily but assuredly) fixed to be enjoyed or sold, totally different story. But this car now has a public history of being a mess, so selling it to anyone with the common sense to do a bit of due diligence googling is going to be tough, and it seems as though it's going to take a lot more work and money to make it a functioning car again, if the desire to keep it is still there.

 

Here are some links that may be of interest; 3 other lawsuits involving Norwood Autocraft.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-txnd-3_05-cv-01625/pdf/USCOURTS-txnd-3_05-cv-01625-0.pdf
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914b67aadd7b0493477907b
https://vmatrix1.brevardclerk.us/beca/all_results.cfm?x=4BB88F8C738788AC99BFD224CC0A2DDB7BDCE7B88E13E70AF805EAD8DFCBC76526FA6ABFEBD34D16D7B733171ED4D4FE

It appears to me that Norwood's legal history is to fight a lawsuit, not close his company and reincorporate.

 

Dave,

I have read enough of this thread that, from my perspective, I do not think you are being harsh. In fact I think that you, along with the other posters who have advised him to walk, are providing the very best advice to Russ. It is the same advice I would give any close friend who asked. You in particular have taken the time to thoughtfully flesh out in multiple posts the thinking behind your advice and I agree with your rationale completely.

To Russ,

The most difficult thing to do in situations such as these is to think coldly and to park your ego. The desire to get even (whatever the heck that means) and to seek restitution "on principle" is sweet music to the legal industry. Don't let it suck you in.

Legal matters aside, this project is so obviously a black hole for money with little of real value to show for it at the end, that you should strongly consider abandoning it on this basis alone. The money that you’ve spent is gone. Better to accept it and move on.

There is no question in my mind that you have every reason to feel aggrieved with Norwood. There is equally no question to me that you are partially the architect of your misfortunes in this case. While it in no way excuses Norwood's behavior, if you want to avoid a similar fate in future perhaps a little self reflection would not be out of place.

For the record, I am not a lawyer but I have been involved enough times at close quarters in litigation (once related to a Ferrari project) that my advice comes from some experience. Likewise, I have been involved in countless automotive projects over the years so I have more than a passing idea of what you have gotten yourself into.

I rarely/never comment on these types of threads, preferring to limit myself to technical discussions but I have really been impressed with the time many posters have taken to give you their heartfelt and well considered opinions when ignoring your problems would have been easier. I guess it’s what makes F Chat the valuable community that it is. For communities to flourish, though, everyone needs to do their part, which is why I’m posting.

Walk from this car, walk from Norwood , walk from this thread and don’t look back. Life’s too short. Good luck.

Best Regards,
Paul

 

Well said Paul.

I wish Attorney’s would give some sound advice freely at times. We can all have dreams.

As a for profit business owner, I give free advice as an expert on the subject matter of car repair and valuations daily. Sometimes my clients heed it and are extremely thankful. Others will tell me, I wish I had listened to your advice. When you pay for counsel, that payment is your contract for solid advice and information, but it is also the mechanism from which more than one attorney becomes very wealthy.

In the end, FChat is providing hours of free advice, by knowledgeable persons, who may not be licensed to practice law or “cross-the-bar” but we do so in effort to help a fellow comrade in sports car hypnosis, not to continue a journey fraught with danger, greater financial loss and daily acrimony of life.

Russ, I implore you to heed our advice to walk away. The above snippets of court documents prove that Norwood is empowered to fight and win or lose he seems to enjoy the fight, the power and the “web” he lives in.

All the best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That was my impression as well.

 

That gated shifter is shocking. 5th & 6th gear seems wider and there is no equal seperation between the gears

Its a shame that people doing this work think that's its ok and presentable. I wouldn't pay for that either. So where is this High Standard of work that Norwood is supposed to gave. Doesn't seem to mind to rubbish other peoples work but blind to his own quality

 

Walk away is indeed sage advice but I’m unclear what that means?

Russ has title to whatever it is. Won’t do Bob any good holding the chassis. Bob holds the car and is storing it this incurring fees.

At some point he will sue to wrest the fees for storage if nothing else. Plus final costs I assume. So Russ still has exposure.

There are other options. His attorney can file to have Bob produce the car at a minimum. Bob has weak grounds for holding it from inspection. Even initiate arbitration. Would be minimal attorneys fees but not zero.

At a minimum his attorney can get with Bobs to work out a final settlement. Which will likely be a compromise.

In the end he has to **end** it, not just ignore it, I think.

SV

 

One look at that console and it’s not surprising that the frame is welded in crooked.

 

Get cash, drive to Bob with a trailer, sign his form and don’t leave until you have the car. Call the police when you’re there since you are then in every right.

You will have an expensive not running well car, but at least something to show for your money. Then ask advice here on how to proceed.

Just get it over with, so you will not turn sour or bitter however it is called, you will not enjoy life.

DO NOT ASK HIM TO WORK MORE OR FIX THIS AND THAT. A THREATENED BOB WILL NOT DO HIS BEST EFFORT TO DELIVER YOU WORKING BRAKES. WOULD YOU EVEN TRUST THAT? I WOULDN’T TRUST THAT FROM ANYONE BEING AGITATED BECAUSE HE IS FORCED.

 

In my case against Chronus Construction the builder and just for the record, I had to get an attorney to defend my position as builder had put a lien on my house. We all know that until that lien comes off it is unsellable.
I still think Russ has to go legal though, Norwood is going to get bitter and sue for the unpaid bill as he can't sell the car without title.
These types of dispute have to have an ending, they don't just go away.

 

I would be producing a spreadsheet a 5 year old could understand, send it to him, then turn up with a trailer a few days later with any genuine balance owed, and would not be leaving until my car was on that trailer, even it it meant camping on his doorstep for a few weeks with a huge banner unfurled on that trailer right outside his house.

The local press would also be getting a call after a few days of camping, to take some pics.

No way would I be bailing on a $100k investment, even if the item is not worth that amount.

Unless you can represent yourself legally then you may as well just burn those dollar bills you end up wasting on the sharp suits.

 

Litigation is throwing good money after bad. Even if you win - you lose. The car is obviously a mess, and not worth what you already have paid, much less the extra money he is extorting from you. Attorneys will just add to the loss. My advice is to either walk away and cut your losses, or use some muscle to obtain possession of the car. and then let him try to sue you. It sounds to me like you are too nice and trusting. Sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands, or if you don't have that capacity it would be cheaper to hire someone that is used to pushing the edge of the law to get it back than dealing with the legal system.

 

You need to find out where the car is.

 

Yup.

Matt

 

Handled sensitively this may be your best option. Possession is nine tenths of the law. If you have the car you take most of his power away.

Given how he operates, I think there is every chance it’s not stored in a secure storage business, but in a barn or at a friends etc.

 

Yeah, that's atrocious. I assumed there had to be a reason for it because it's so far off, although I'm not enough of a mechanic to know either way.

 

To me "walk away" could mean a few things. One is to literally walk and cut off communication. Norwood might sue for what he feels he's owed, or he might not. I've known of a handful of cases where clients disappear or leave cars with the intention of maybe someday doing work on them, and the shop eventually just takes the car as payment for back storage. Let Norwood take the time and spend the money to file a suit to take the car for remuneration , Russ can just not fight it and be done. That would probably be my route.

"Walk away" could also mean trying one last time to rationally appeal to Norwood to hand over the car and call it a draw. If he says no, say "Congrats on your new car", hand him the pink slip (signed over to him), and walk away.

I understand the idea of needing a clean break, legally speaking, but again, you're throwing good money after bad. I'll offer an anecdote. I had someone owe me a lot or money years ago for work of mine that they had sold, and they weren't paying me. I got an influential lawyer who specializes in that exact situation (all too common in my business) to write them a letter telling them they needed to pay up. One letter. That one letter cost me $6k. $6000! For one letter! In my case though, I was going after cash I was undeniably owed, not a car in need of tons of work where it was debatable who owed what to who, and would cost me even more money after I got it back no matter what.

The other consideration is that it appears that Norwood actually enjoys this stuff...fighting it out in the courts, etc. So to cater to that at all, through any type of negotiation or arbitration, is to invite a long drawn out court battle. I'd rather gamble on walking away. At least that requires Norwood to be proactive and pony up the time and money to start the proceedings, which might dissuade him, especially if he has the car. Who knows. We know Norwood will fight when he's sued, do we know how many he has brought suit against? Maybe he only "gets his Irish up" if you come after him, his threats aside.

Russ gets into arbitration or even just having lawyers write letters, and it's going to cost him even more than he's already lost. Again, money he could just put toward a new car. And again, the thing he's trying to get returned has little to no value beyond parts. It almost non-negotiable in it's current state...a barely functioning kit car made up of mostly altered or mismatched Ferrari parts, that can't idle, can't stop, and doesn't sit straight. And ironically, Norwood would probably be one of the few people on Earth who might have an interest in buying any of those parts...have fun with that.

The "barely legal" tough guy thing sounds fun on an internet forum, but boy oh boy, if there's one way to make yourself the villain in court, or even in the eyes of decent society, it's to hire a heavy to steal back your car or threaten people. OJ Simpson anyone? He didn't go to prison for murder. He went to prison for criminal conspiracy and stealing back stuff he felt belonged to him. In Nevada of all places, where "tough guy/stand your ground/what's mine is mine" mentality still reigns pretty well. Grown men shouldn't act like that, but that's just my opinion.

Bottom line is any continuation of this saga on Russ's part is going to cost him more. It's just a question of how much more.

Russ got himself into a big mess. Sometimes you just have to admit it and move on. At a certain point, it doesn't matter how negligent or even dishonest the other party was...continuing on hurts you more than them.

Anyway, good luck Russ.

 

It is his property.

There is a whole industry around repossession. It’s a rough world, but there are people doing it everyday.

Norwood doesn’t have a lien?

Norwood has no grounds to hold the car or hide its location.

You can’t steal your own property.

 

All true, but true in theory and feasible, or a good idea, in reality aren't always the same.

 

What is car needs is an exorcist. It has been trouble since before he got it.