David Piper restores the Talacrest P4 | Page 125 | FerrariChat

David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Streetrod, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    May I ask which 412 P you’re referring to?
     
  2. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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  3. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    Actually I think 0854 was in a fire whilst in a garage in East London, South Africa. From what I hear, it was already wearing Piper replacement fiberglass front and rear clamshells (bodywork) at the time of the fire. Apparently the original aluminum clamshells have since been reunited with the car.
     
  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    A few points
    - JC may simply have used the term original in the wrong context, it is one of the three original P4s
    - Mr. Medlins reclusive nature meant the car was not used for 30+ years so its more original than many that were wrecked in that period
    - The answer of whether the 350 Can Am required chassis mods when converted was never answered conclusively so it may be a pure P4 chassis underneath, neither the 0846 or 0858 ever fully and finally answered this, despite Jims claims that they all had different chassis mods. Ferrari themselves state on their website that they all had 2400mm wheelbase's and this is Ferrarichat after all, either original or at worst modified original.
    - The engine was built and fitted by Ferrari in contemporary times so a world away from an engine built in the UK in 2018, original.
    - The bodywork is not original.
    - David Piper is a hero to many Brits so why the hate for what he did with this?

    Otherwise its all perspective, isn't it?
     
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  5. tomgt

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    Read the thread again and see the photos on page 2
     
  6. ginge82

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    The engine is a Ferrari engine. They declined to confirm whether or not this specific engine is the original engine the car had when a P4...

    So we have an 'original P4' that may have some original chassis sections left with virtually everything else added later. What a time capsule.
     
  7. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    You are speculating that a chassis with continuous, known history COULD be anything...yet, you believe that a chassis that went missing for years...suddenly re-appeared...requires quite a few twists and turns which individually might be plausible, but become ludicrous in totality...is genuine and should command the world’s respect? Such thinking simultaneously condemns countless collector cars and legitimizes many pipe dreams.
     
  8. tomgt

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    What do you think about 0854? Same as the way you look at 0858?
    Crisp chassis
    Crisp dash instruments
    Crisp Webers
    Crisp everything
     
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  9. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    The harping on about 0858 is clearly deflection tactics from a certain camp
     
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  10. tomgt

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    0854 was heavily modified into can am just like 0858. Main difference: 0854 was never a works car otherwise it would have been scrapped.
    Charcoal chariot. Crisp heap of metal. What happens to metal when 3 min on fire?
     
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  11. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

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    Deflection tactics? That's a bit rich.

    The minute JC's bull about his 'original P4' is called out you (and others) automatically begin the 'yeah but this car, that chassis' routine.

    Strange how you will publicly denounce JG's car and words and yet have NO issue with this Piper abortion that apparently is now an 'original P4'. Weird...

    I will ask again, what exactly is 'original P4' with this car today?

    Engine? Nope
    Body? Nope
    Chassis? Nope. Modified numerous times.
    Interior? Nope.
    Any major components? Nope.

    What a great 'original' car.
     
  12. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    I am not aware that Talacrest have taken ownership of the car again? its had at least two owners since then so why do you keep referring to it as John Collins car?

    Even your current reply is a deflection as you simply will not apply the same criteria to either of Jims cars that you insist 0858 has to be judged against.
     
  13. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    I think we all need to see the use of the term "original", in its exact context, for anybody to have a meaningful opinion about whether or not that comment is appropriate. Do you (or anyone else) have a link to where that term was used?
     
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #3114 miurasv, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    JC was replying to a question if the car was original which he took to mean "Is it real or replica?" rather the "Is it as it was in 1967?" sense imo. He was very transparent in what was happening with the car at the time 0858 was being reconfigured as a P4.

    See screen shots of the Instagram page where the comment is made and replies in the second pic.



    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Absolutely agree with you. Depends on your perspective, could refer to one of the three originally built as a 330P4, not accounting for those converted to/ from 412P or 330P3. Nothing that happens today stops it being one of the original three, ginge82 and others can only argue that it was not always original or doesn't remain original or some such but much of that is semantic.
     
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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Meant to say: JC was replying to a question if the car was original which he took to mean "Is it real or replica?" rather THAN the "Is it as it was in 1967?" sense imo.

    This 10 minute edit limit is very annoying.
     
  17. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    I agree...the semantics are lost when one speaks from both sides of their mouth. We can argue about the definition of original and we can coexist with differing interpretations. The failure is when a person applies one set of standards to one car and the same person (or people) applies a different set of standards to another car. It becomes laughable when we are asked to respect history in one case while simultaneously being asked to suspend a whole lot of reality in order to make the other case match some imagined (and seemingly changing) history.
     
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  18. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Original and originally are not the same thing.

    What is it listed in Ferrari's books as? 350 Can Am or a P4?

    There is your answer as to what it is.
     
  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    What official Ferrari books? and when were they published, things constantly move forward in the classic car game, printed books are just a moment in time.
     
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  20. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    If only. Once again, it’s about the application of a double standard. For example, if we apply your standard to other P cars or, “P cars”...what do the books say about them? IOW, one cannot play the “as it last left the factory” card without obliterating P3/4 to a history long ago past that no longer exists.

    Your metric makes one car a 350 Can Am and another car a pile of dust and rust. If one will not allow a car with a traceable chain of custody and fully known history to revert back to something it was, how can one allow a mystery chassis with a very contentious and non-proven history to become anything?
     
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  21. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    No one ever claimed that 0846 was recognized by Ferrari as 0846. It was believed to be built from the chassis remains of of 0846 and that was always clearly stated. It was also clearly stated that the car was not recognized by Ferrari as 0846 due to it had been written off the books as scrapped. No one ever disputed that on either side of the argument as far as I remember.

    So therefore, just as the believed remains of 0846 are no longer recognized by Ferrari as P4 0846, 0858 is no longer recognized by Ferrari as a P4, it is to this day recognized as a 350 Can Am. Therefore this car is a 350 Can Am built from the remains of what was originally a P4 but is now a 350 Can Am re-bodied to resemble a P4. It really is that simple.
     
  22. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    The records Ferrari holds to this day recognize that the car is a 350 Can Am. A rebody does not change that. The car is a 350 Can Am despite whatever body you care to put on it.
     
  23. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula 3

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    So...when 0846 was last at the factory, it became a memory. So, best case scenario is there’s a memory that resembles a P3/4. So, we have a car with complete history resembling something it used to be...and, a huge question mark that resembles a P3/4 that once existed. One is George Washington’s axe, the other is simply an axe.
     
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  24. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    and where are these records for us all to see as well, as you seem to have seen them? the car could no longer be raced as a Can Am in any historic series as it has a P4 body so how can it still be a Can Am?
     
  25. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    Are you saying Ferrari has changed its record to record this car to now recognize it as a P4? 0858 was changed to a 350 Can Am by Ferrari and is recognized by Ferrari as a 350 Can Am and everybody knows it. It has never been changed back to P4.

    These would be the exact same records you have often spoke of where Ferrari has written off 0846 as destroyed and therefore no longer exists in the eyes of Ferrari, whether the chassis survived or not.

    What some independent Vintage racing organization deems acceptable in a Vintage race has no bearing on what the car really is. Only the manufacturer determines that.
     

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