FF vs F12 vs 458 | FerrariChat

FF vs F12 vs 458

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Georgemaser, Jun 13, 2017.

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  1. Georgemaser

    Georgemaser Karting

    Aug 7, 2014
    228
    Michigan
    I drove my neighbors Lamborghini Huracan and thought it was a blast. Now I am thinking about trading in my FF for something a bit more 'fun'. Now don't get me wrong, I love the FF and see what you all are talking about when you say nothing compares to a Ferrari. For those of you who have had both the FF and F12, is the F12 that much more of an experience? More visceral? More 'fun'? Also, any thoughts on the 458 compared to the FF or F12?
    Thank you in advance for any input.
     
    John Lommets likes this.
  2. ml321

    ml321 Formula Junior

    Aug 26, 2008
    254
    London/Munich
    I can only compare it to the 355 I owned a long time ago. I think the 355 was a lot more fun (lighter weight, manual transmission, nimble).

    I have the FF because I drive it daily and need to take my dog, friends, stuff along and like to have 4wd and feel safe - esp during winter (if that makes sense), but I would not choose it if the main purpose was to have a fun car (that did not have to do only-car duties).

    Pretty sure a 458 (or any mid-engined Italian car) would give you a lot more of that "sense of occasion" feeling when driving.
     
  3. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,557
    Southern Europe
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    Mario
    I can talk about the F12b but only very superficially about the FF and the 458 because I have never owned one of them. I'm sure you'll soon will get here expert advice from owners who know everything about the three. In general terms the F12B and the FF are very different cars from the 458. The first two are GT's were you can travel with a relatively good comfort for long distances and the 458 is more a kind of sports car not oriented for this kind of use. You'll never be able to explore even a part of the F12b power on the road but at the same time the car can be very civilized and has the best sound of the three. The FF has all the advantages of the four wheels traction and the four seats which make all the difference if you want to travel with the family or friends.
     
  4. Zaius

    Zaius Formula Junior

    May 8, 2014
    863
    I have both and yes the 458 is more fun mainly because it is very precise, sits lower and the power is easy to manage.

    F12 is a handful no doubt and requires a much more experienced driver to get the most out of it. The exhaust sound is incredible whereas the 458 is just noisy.
     
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  5. bobhitch

    bobhitch Formula Junior

    Jun 28, 2014
    323
    UK
    Full Name:
    Bob
    I've had all three and have loved them all.In answer to your question 'is the F12 more visceral than the FF?' absolutely yes is the answer.
    Aside from transporting more than 2 people ,everything about the F12 is better than the FF.
    The 458 is a different kettle of fish and I think it comes down more to personal preference but for my money the F!2 wins hands down.
    Happy shopping.
    Cheers,Bob
     
  6. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    10,858
    I didn't like the FF when I had it. So please keep that in mind as I will be critical and I know many people love the FF. If you've ever had a car that you just didn't like- that's what happened for me.

    Some other members here have mentioned a strange handling behavior with the FF, which I am not sure if I can do as good a job describing as they have, but basically the handling behavior was not as consistent throughout a turn as in other Ferraris I have had. It felt like non linear steering response. And when I would sometimes want to have fun with the car, I could feel the 4RM system grab the front tires a little too aggressively for my tastes. This sometimes created a slight rubber banding effect. I also want a Ferrari to have an emotional appeal and unfortunately for me the styling of the car did not do that for me. And it was large and never really shrunk around me as I drove it with more guile. I think some of the appeal of the FF is in its usability- this is a more logical argument which counts for very little as far as I am concerned when thinking about Ferrari. I found myself thinking every time I drove it or looked at it or thought about it: Though the motor is fantastic, this is not what I want in a Ferrari- its not as good at daily things as my daily car, and its not as emotional a connection as I have experienced with prior models. So I made a change. That's the thing about these cars, you will have a reaction to them and it won't always be positive. So then you find the ones that work for you.

    The F12b motor is even better than the FF and the handling feels natural to me. It does not have any of the issues I perceived with the FF. The F12's handling is about as close to a mid engine car as I've ever experienced in a front engine vehicle. I know Ferrari will be quick to point out the F12 is a front-mid arrangement. That's true. And the gearbox is in the back (I think the same for the FF) and the weight distribution is also slightly rear biased (47/53?) But those stats don't matter if the car doesn't inspire you when you drive it. My humble opinion is the F12berlinetta is simply the best modern Ferrari production car. It might also be the best car they ever made. So long as you are driving in favorable conditions, the car has incredible traction for a rear drive car. Much much better than the 599. And this is with more power and (slightly) less weight! I would say the F12berlinetta has about 150% the power of the 458 Italia and 90% of the handling/ nimble feeling of the 458, and probably 250% of the comfort. Its also gorgeous. You can drive this car relaxed or crazed and it will be your willing accomplice. Then you can gaze back on it and admire the beautiful Pininfarina designed shape. For me at least, this is an irresistible combination of attributes- it just doesn't get any better.

    One day we had friends and their children over and one of them asked to see the cars so I obliged and when his 17 year old son came upon the 458 he said- "its a jet fighter for the road!" And I think thats a pretty good summary of the 458. These days the 458 might not feel as fast as it once did as the 488 has so much more power and the competition is getting better too. But the 458 still feels modern, and it feels plenty fast and the car's handling is almost like they plugged your brain into the car. And its also another top Pininfarina design and achingly beautiful. Even with the F12 in the garage, I still love to drive the 458, it is a really exciting street car.

    Between them, I would take the F12b. I can only imagine what the lucky owners of the F12tdf get to experience!
     
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  7. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,755
    maximizing for the fun factor i vote for the 458 at current prices. Ive described the FF as a 4 seater 458 but the 458 is def more fun. the FF is more usable and in my eyes rather ugly compared to the 458. I dont have an f12 so cant comment on that one but i wld comfortably say if you want something in between the usability if the FF and the fun of a 458 then go f12
     
  8. Jkay

    Jkay Karting

    Jan 9, 2017
    242
    My personal opinion having driven all three

    458: sounds good and handles amazing due to mid engine layout, feels so direct and I can enjoy it almost anywhere

    F12 : Sounds AMAZING but not as "chuckable" as the 458 due to V12 at the front and I felt I need to be putting in more effort/soeed to enjoy it ...great when you can get it right on the right roads oh and it sounds AMAZING

    FF: still has that great V12 sound and just made me want to cruise, but cruise fast, everywhere

    I found the F12 more fun than the FF as it just seemed to be more of a beast. F12 needs the right roads to have fun, but 458 I feel I can have fun with almost anywhere anytime

    Oh and have I mentioned that V12 sounds AMAZING? :)
     
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  9. Jlee504

    Jlee504 Karting

    Apr 8, 2017
    53
    What about the weight between the f12 and 458? Does the f12 feel a lot heavier?

    I've been searching for a used 458 coupe but the f12 prices aren't that far maybe $30-40k apart.
     
  10. raclaims

    raclaims Formula Junior

    Jun 6, 2007
    493
    Northern NJ
    I've driven an FF and own a 458 and F12

    FF to me was not very inspiring compared to the other 2.

    The 458 is a race car, the F12 a monster GT plain and simple

    My wife loves the F12 and doesn't like driving the 458 because it's too loud and too low, etc.

    When I need to grab the keys I usually choose the F12 but then I drive the 458 and am like damn that's so awesome.

    Really comes down to which you prefer...the mid engine race car feel or the mega HP GT comfy yet insane ride.
     
  11. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    Spot on!

    F12 is very sensitive about tire temp.

    It is tricky to enjoy the full potential unless you are on track. It has too much power.

    But it is better car.

    It can do tracks, corners, straights given right condition.

    As for 458, it lacks top end torque.

    As engine sings harder, you will feel less power.

    FF is in the middle.

    It is too heavy to fully enjoy the corners, but it has punch at the top end on the straight line.
     
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  12. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Two questions:

    1) What design/engineering feature makes the F12 particularly prone to tire temperature?

    Oh wait. Just one question afterall, the second is a categorical statement:

    You have never, *EVER* driven a 458.

    Regarding the OP's dilemma:

    The F12 is both one of the nicest GT cars ever made, and an amazingly fast machine on the track. The 458 hasn't got that dual personality as defined as the F12, in my humble opinion: it just wants to go faster all the time, it wants to be pushed, it doesn't want to be chauffered around. It can cope with lower speeds and long trips, but you can sense that it's not in its element or natural habitat. The F12, according to my perception, is also more comfortable (bumpy road off) and spacious than the 458. The 458 is somewhat a more radical car, and you have 9.200rpm to play with. With either car, you can't go wrong. It really depends on personal taste, how you're planning to use the car and what you aim to feel behind the wheel.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  13. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,839
    France
    For me it would be the F12 without hesitation.
    The 458 is painfully lacking power compared to the F12, and its angry and ostentatious screaming is no match for a V12.
    And driven properly, an F12 is faster than a 458 in any conditions.
    Each to their own of course; IMHO the turbochargers have been a welcome addition to the 458, making the 488 an acceptable (and cheaper) alternative to the F12.
     
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  14. Zaius

    Zaius Formula Junior

    May 8, 2014
    863
    To be honest hes kind of right about the tire temp especially on Pzeros, I literally had ZERO traction on rolls against 911s. The tires need to be above 50c!

    458 hooks better and with grip is just as fast to 200km/h as the f12.
     
  15. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    I owned 458 for about an year. In what part do you feel that way about 458?

    I had all 3 at the same time.

    458 lacks the high rpm punch.

    F12's rear is very sensitive to tire temp. If you really have to ask what design and feature makes it that way, then the answer is wide rear tire+big power+RWD+cold temp is just no no.

    These are what I experienced.

    Anyway, no matter how anyone feel about my comment, I hope it helps OP to make right choice.
     
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  16. rockitman

    rockitman F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2015
    5,982
    Upstate, NY
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    Christian
    FF for the wife, 458 and F12 for you. Problem solved.
     
  17. rfg

    rfg Rookie

    Oct 31, 2013
    22
    San Francisco
    Full Name:
    Richard
    I have a 2014 458 and a 2017 F12. I love them both, but the 458 much more so mostly because of the handling equanimity of a mid-engine car. The F12 feels front heavy (as it is) - and sadly a bit too much like the 2014 California I traded in for F12. Maybe I haven't driven the F12 hard enough, because the 458 also sounds much better at city and highway speeds. It feels lighter and more nimble than the actual weight differential between the two cars would suggest. You will get a good gestalt of the two by latching to the fact that the 458 is a sports car and the F12b is a GT. Which genre do you prefer? I hope that accurate generalization enables you to decide.
     
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  18. iloveferrari

    iloveferrari Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,754
    USA
    I almost got the F12 after I felt somewhat disconnected from my California T HS, then with the 812 coming out, I paused all the processes of getting into the F12. I even wanted to just swap the Cali T for 458 because of its NA sound. Then I paused again because my daily is a Evora 400 which my wife kept reminding me is somewhat in the same spectrum of 458 in terms of purpose wise. Then at the end, I ended up doing nothing.

    Now when I read this statement of F12 feeling similar to California, I am like no....no....that is not a good news... Still hoping for a 812 feeling more visceral and yet comfortable.

    This thread is so useful... Thanks for keeping it going.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
     
  19. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Well, not really. It's 46% front, 54% rear.
     
  20. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
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    Feb 24, 2016
    3,557
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    Mario
    Richard, I've had an aspirated California as well and now an F12 and IMO they are very different cars and belong to different categories. The California in terms of versatility is probably the number one Ferrari because you switch from a coupé to a open top in 14 seconds and in reality is like having two different cars. The California is a fast car, faster then the majority of cars, and gives to the majority of mortals a very good driving experience. The F12 has also a dual personality, can be very well behaved at low speed and rpm but is an absolute beast when you want it to be. One practical comparison example I can give is in one particular tight curve in a motorway which I know very well. With the California in sport mode traveling at 190 Km/hour in this curve there was a lot o body movement and I felt the car it was traveling in it's absolute limits. The F12 attacks this same curve at 220 Km/hour with a total grip and very little body rolling and I have the sensation the car is totally glued to the tarmac, it's not in it's limits and could do it faster if I wished.
     
  21. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
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    Nuno
    In my humble opinion, Richard has nailed it.

    Regarding the OP's dilemma: it all comes down to what kind of emotions you want to live behind the wheel of your Ferrari. The FF, the F12 and 458 are three cars with three very different and strong personalities. It's really hard to point you in the right direction, I'd recommend to try them if possible. I'd classify them in this fashion:

    F12: one of the best, most refined GTs ever made by man.
    458: one of the best full blown, non compromise sportscar ever made by man.
    FF: one of the most practical, versatile and comfortable 2+2s ever made by man.

    Do you want to rack up miles with ease like a limousine but want to blow your mind when you press down on the right pedal? The F12. Dual personality and the best of both worlds. You will want for nothing.

    Do you want to feel like you're on a racetrack? Is there a hidden sportscar driver in your personality? The 458. Loves and asks of you to abuse it, push it to the limit all the time. It detests to be pampered.

    Do you want to enjoy the Ferrari experience with your wife and kids? Not worry about snow or sand? Own a chalet on the swiss Alps? The FF. You won't miss whichever daily driver you left behind in your garage at home.

    Comparing the 458 or the 488 to the F12 or the FF mechanically speaking makes very little sense in my humble opinion: rear mid-engined V8s versus front engined V12s?
    That's like judging a fish by its ability to climb up a tree.

    Regarding tire temps: from my experience, the 458 is a bit like the F12 in that chapter: for optimal grip, keep tire temps above 50ºC/122ºF. Below those figures, the rear tends to slide at the first opportunity without much effort. But that's an universal problem to any car: cold tires don't grip as much as properly warmed up tires.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  22. kirk930

    kirk930 Rookie

    May 26, 2021
    2
    Full Name:
    Kirk hammond
    I have an ff now and an 11 turbo s cab 911 . I love the ff I drove an f12 today. Second one. It is just awesome. It is the ultimate drivers car. Just hard to put the power down. The 911 puts it down like no other but dull compared to the Ferraris. Drove a 458 and 488 both great cars but I would go f12. Now eventually my garage will be f8 convertible and f12.
     
  23. 3POINT8

    3POINT8 F1 Rookie
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    Jan 23, 2014
    4,395
    I own both the 458 and F12. Hard to go wrong but my favorite is the 458 because it feels like a race car and never lets you forget it. The F12 at lower speeds and revs is a little bit too well mannered. I have tracked the F12 though and whereas its a bit heavy it is next level beast mode when you get on it. It's also a ton more comfortable if you are making long trips.
     
  24. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    10,858
    If you are having trouble putting the power down with the F12 try new Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires- I think they make the correct sizes. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the traction.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  25. ryalex

    ryalex Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 6, 2003
    24,957
    Las Vegas, NV
    Full Name:
    Ryan Alexander
    Both the F12 and 458 will feel razor sharp compared to the Huracan. I just tried my friend's 580 and even being the RWD version I thought it felt slightly numb (Audi again).

    Went from 458 to F12 and I've written several comparison posts, but the short version is that the 458 is lighter, slightly lower, and you can romp on the throttle a lot, F12 is more all around - it can do comfy cruising but then goes ballistic when provoked. It is like riding a dragon. If you have just one the F12 is a "better" car, but I see why people have both. I highly recommended the Michelin 4S and they are still temperature sensitive. Like Clarkson noted you don't leave the car thinking, "Hmmm, that needs more power."

    If you like the GT elements of your FF then the F12 is a natural progression.
     

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