The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

IMO, the whole problem With episode 0003 of MIURA SVU is that it has been anything but open minded, it is exceedingly myopic in its scope IMO.

IMO Miura's POV is only to prove that this is not 0846, and IMO the only corners he is looking in are ones that will feed this viewpoint.

And he said 512s "sized" wheels and "larger" brakes, so not necessarily 512s wheels. Or brakes.

Let's throw a long shot hypothetical out there, what if Jim is actually right? What if it is indeed the remains of 0846.

 

Hello Vincent. Since DP003 is an emotional subject for many, I will try to answer your question in a metaphor that might allow you to see a side of the discussion from a distance.

I do not understand why we would consider a hypothetical long shot in this case.

Let's assume that someone chooses to take a stand and incorrectly state that a stop light is actually green. Everyone that can look at a red stop light and agree that it is indeed red, might wonder why they are being asked to consider a long shot theory that it is actually green. Especially when everyone can clearly see the light color in question. And everyone has known since the beginning of traffic lights, that stop lights are red.

But then someone purchases a green light and states that it is actually a stop light. The only one stating that a stop light is green seems to be the one who has a green light, but desperately wants a stop light. Some people really like this guy, and also want stop lights, so they agree that this green light in question must actually be a stop light. Even when a picture of a traffic light with the red light clearly shown is placed next to a picture of the green light, these followers deny the clear evidence in front of them, and still declare the light to be a stop light.

To those onlookers who clearly see a green light, this can get very tiresome. It is just a frustrating argument that will never come to rest, as logic, evidence, and common sense can not convince some people that green lights mean go. And no amount of conjecture, what ifs, hypotheticals, made up stories, rewritten history, denials, or manipulation will change the facts.

I hope this helps

 

Sure, but really that is both sides of a discussion/argument, sometimes either side will always see a green light even if it is red.

People usually see what they want to see due to it is the only way they will look at it and the only place they are looking.

Sure, it may be a long shot that the chassis is 0846. But I would not say that it is clear cut that it isn't.

The car as it sits today, does not have to be exact to a photo, said to be 0846, as it sat in 1967.

We know the chassis in question has been modified at least once since its original construction.

We do not know much about damage, modification, and repair to the car etc. under Piper.

We do not have any reference of the other Piper chassis as compared to this one.

Etc. Etc.

I would not call this is 0003 as being black or white, or red or green.

It would be nice to hear from Jim G. on what he believes to be his green light, but I'm guessing we wont.

Only time will tell.

 

And this type of flawed logic will perpetuate the discussion. We have to remember, that all of the incorrect facts have been substantiated by the first improvable and preposterous theory that someone must have "pinched the remaining bits of 0846, and secretly snuck them into Davids chassis, without his knowledge!"

This theory has no proof, and yet, it was initially treated as if it were plausible, and now it is simply passed on as a known, hard documented fact, despite all of the supporting evidence that has extensively disproven it.

The more realistic scenario is that 0846 got scrapped, melted, and it actually ended up in many different Ferraris.

But as you suggest, let's look at a hypothetical. Let's say someone with a 68-70 tube frame Ferrari made a statement claiming that he had absolute proof that the metal in his chassis was utilized from a batch of metal that had been melted down after his buddy saw 0846 go into the smelter, and then get formed into new tubes, and then watched the tubes get shipped back to the chassis builder, and then constructed into his very own Ferrari!!! Imagine his excitement! Imagine if we spent 10,000 posts debating the preposterous theory, because this owner was very passionate about the car, and everyone liked him. Imagine if everyone bought it!

But then imagine if we found out that this car that claimed to be 0846 was actually constructed in 1964, and therefore had zero possibility of being utilized from the chassis remains of 0846. Let's say that there was an unknown picture of it found at a known car show in 1964. Let's say that the chassis actually turned out to be fabricated from a completely different material than 0846. Let's say that the car actually turned out to be a Lancia. At some point, those still arguing the theory as fact start to lose credibility, and many of the jury that were honestly anxious to find the truth, now see the real facts that are proven with very clear evidence and photographs.

It simply does not matter that someone who is clearly invested in their car being something much grander than it actually is, THINKS it is. It matters what the car actually is.

You state several facts, some incorrectly such as that the chassis has been modified, although only with the bolt on adaptors and as such means that the original form is still there and preserved; and some correctly, such as the fact that we do not know the damage repair or the reference to the other chassis, but none of these facts equate to it being 0846. These facts don't support any claim to the car being anything other than a replica that has bolt on adapters, and we are not familiar with its damage history and relation to other replicas. But you hold these as scintillating teasers that somehow allow you to link it to 0846. As an example, I once owned a 69 Camaro. I was not aware of it's prior damage history, and it had been modified in its past. I therefore assumed the car was a Penske Sunoco famous vintage race car that got scrapped.

This would be a long shot, but according to your logic, it would be very plausible, and possibly have a 50/50 chance of being true.

Similarly, everybody who owns any 1969-1970 small diameter tube frame Ferrari can claim with an equal "long shot" that their car is actually made from the chassis remains of 0846. But very few people would have the stones to maintain that position, especially when evidence proved otherwise.

And although I agree that sometimes people might see a green light as red, their mistake is still wrong.

With best regards

 

There is more than bolt on adapters. There is clear welded on modification. There is also repaired damage. Inconsistent welds etc. but I believe you know that.

Not saying that any of this hypothetical is remotely true, but there is more than one side/possibilities to a story, unfortunately I doubt we will hear Jim's side due to he probably can't be bothered by the compulsive badgering. It's too bad cause wrong or right, I would like to hear what he believes and why he thinks Miura is wrong.

0846 post LeMans test mule may seem like an outlandish tale, but a tale none the less that would be good to hear.

Am I supposed to believe he is blatantly denying Miura's claims for Ego? The guy has a verified 412 in his garage, how much more ego do you need?

I'm sure that many court cases are decided by hearing only one side of the argument.

Too bad this place has been made so volatile that we probably wont hear the other.

And yes, I truly do think that quality photos of all other Piper P4 chassis is important. If the rest aren't the same as the one in question, I would have questions.

And even more so, Miura has talked with Piper, if Piper is convinced he built it, maybe he'd be happy to answer 10 or so questions that come from the group.

Cheers.

 

Vincent, why don't you call him or email him!

PM me for his contact info.

 

It seems that the only person in this group who has questions is you, so why don't you ask him? The rest of us can see what Steve's photo comparisons prove.
Nathan

 

Supporting the owner or just cross media communication?

See Daytona winner here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P. And note: DP0003 is pictured below and obviously the wrong car got fueled for a spin ...
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

i am not the only one.

For instance, Rob Lay, you know the owner of this site, feels it is not the real 0846, but it also seems that he is also not 100% on board with that, as are others in recent posts. Correct me if I am wrong Rob?

Steve's photos only prove that the frame as it sits today does not match the supposed pictures of 0846.

God, you English are so smug, aren't you?

 

Wait a minute? Ferrari is now a refinery/foundry? When I toured the Factory, I didn't see the blast furnaces, but maybe that was off limits for visitors.

 

Why dont you call Piper??

 

I was not suggesting that Ferrari itself melted the tubes down, but it is completely logical to assume that scrap metal goes to the scrap metal recycler, where it it recycled and resupllied to the chassis builder. Especially if it is an exotic type as used in the P chassis.

And as I understand it, Ferrari does have a foundry where they cast their blocks and other assorted parts.

 

this could be analyzed

 

Ha, I was on a jury trial with a guy like Vincent Vangool. The prosecutor supplied much evidence of the defendant selling drugs, complete with photos and undercover buy from the police.

One juror - our own Vincent - believed that proof beyond a reasonable doubt meant that any alternative scenario would render the defendant innocent. Vincent then concocted perhaps there was a twin lookalike, that also had keys to the apartment, or maybe ...everything short of a UFO. No proof or even alternative facts - just hypothetical scenarios created out of thin air and ignoring the reality of the actual evidence. It was an exhausting several hours for the rest of us.

Vincent Vangool's posts so clearly reminds me of that juror Vincent.

 

Brilliant! Elegantly put the nonsense in a nutshell.

 

… and he permanently rejects to understand in our - civil - case, that David Piper has nothing to confirm or prove, because this burden is just on those who feel that someone must have "pinched the remaining bits of 0846, and secretly snuck them into Davids chassis, without his knowledge!" And now he denies asking him, although contact is kindly offered. Instead, he calls the English ‘snug’.

 

Vincent, as you want to hear Jims side of things then simply join his facebook group and put forward the elements from the pro 0003 camp you also dont agree with and then let us know his reply. Simples.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

Today I checked the follow car magazines (some cover TESTS and photos of MULES) from 66-67-68
ALL TESTS CAN BE FOUND WITH Ps: Monza, Autodromo Modena etc.
Nowhere I found tests with a P4 mule. I have factory docs, race reports and other stuff of 1967 Scuderia Ferrari as well (P cars): nothing.
Nothing.
No Mugello pics nor articles with text only

Quattroruote
Auto Italiana
Autosprint
France Auto
Auto Revue
Motor
Sport Auto
L'Automobile Sport Mécanique

For an untrained eye (and ever have seen a bare P4 frame) you can not tell all the differences between a P2, P3 or P4 frame.

 

As Nathan pointed in post 9958 Mugello circuit opened in 1974 with a F5000 race.
Storia
Too much misinformation in that Facebook post.
Gab

 

Not saying 0846 was there in period as indicated but they have run at Mugello since the 1920's. They ran on a road course and in 1967 it was a part of the Sports Car World Championship. They also allowed/did testing there when the roads were open leading to a bad accident with fatalities that would end up with the last race in 1970. I believe 0848 did run at Mugello in the 1967 race and had an accident.

The closed circuit did open in 1974.

 

The irony...

 

If only Vincent had actually read Nathan's post that Gablet referenced before opening his trap....

See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/145231524-post9958.html

The penny hasn't dropped for Vincent either regarding Mr Glickenhaus's Facebook posts of the last few months regarding his replica which are actually in DIRECT RESPONSE to the evidence about the engine in his car being a 3 litre 312 F1 engine, not a 4 litre P4 engine as he's stated for years and that the front part of the chassis is different on his car to the real 0846 as well as many other differences.

His claims that 0846 was rebuilt by Ferrari after Le Mans with a 3 litre engine bla bla bla and tested/crashed at Mugello are absolutely desperate. 0846 was never used again after Le Mans 1967.

 

.......and for Mr Glickenhaus to say that he agreed with Ferrari about the post Le Mans modifications, as if they had actually told him about these fantasy modifications is on a different level of desperation again.

 

As are your posts when they're heavy-handed, Steve. For those of us who have been around for awhile/have memories, your posts serve you better when they focus on photographic and/or other similar clues and evidence. When they lean in the direction of questioning Napolis motives or integrity, when they're judgmental and/or seemingly leaning toward vindictive in nature- you risk limiting your audience to those firmly in your camp and you may turn off others who are open-minded and willing to listen.

Best Regards,
Dave

 

Yes. YesThey do... And yes... you missed it.

They absolutely have a foundry

So you can take your cheeky comment to minute 7:01 on this video to see if for yourself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFYeP6AXCA4


Im just poking at you for fun. Not trying to be mean spirited