Odometer Rollback Scandal | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Odometer Rollback Scandal

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by KJB355, Feb 27, 2017.

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  1. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    He worked for the dealership. The information is owned by the dealer. You ordered a car. How are they supposed to find you? In the yellow pages?

    what is this? A little black book like a "madame" has of johns?
     
  2. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

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    As the Mayor stated, there just is no financial justification for Ferrari corporate to be involved. What difference would it make in demand "for the next "must have" super car"? Doesn't Ferrari turn away multiple buyers for virtually any new super car? (FF is not in the super car category). No, the dealership, the salesperson and the private seller are the ones who have anything to gain in this scheme in the cases where it would be feasible.

    Furthermore, except for a few exceptional cars, rolling back the odometer isn't as practical as it was back in the last century. Today most service records are on computers. One would also have to go in and alter mileage for prior service visits. And what about the state vehicle inspection. I know in Massachusetts the mileage is recorded at each yearly inspection. Now you would have to bribe someone at the Mass. Registry of Motor Vehicles to alter the mileage (not impossible here, they have been caught issuing licenses to people who can't legally obtain a license). But even if you could do that, what about services like Carfax? If the mileage was reported to them, then you would have to bribe someone there to alter their records to match the altered dealer and RMV records.
     
  3. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    #28 Peloton25, Feb 27, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
    On the broader issue of manipulating an odometer - if you replace the instrument cluster in a modern car due to defect there has to be a way to set the new dash to read the car's current mileage. A tool with this capability would likely be programmed to enter any figure and I've witnessed this occur on a different make of car. Every manufacturer will have a Technical/Diagnostic tool that enables this activity and thanks to the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair act (in the USA) these tools are also available to private firms in many cases.

    On the subject of your final question - if you buy a used gauge cluster sourced from a car with more mileage, perhaps that would be one legitimate reason to roll the odometer backwards.

    There have been a number of small used car dealers and private sellers popped for doing what is being accused here, so it does happen though not necessarily with Ferraris per se. However, I have little confidence in the idea that this is some kind of widespread conspiracy permeating throughout the Ferrari dealer ecosystem, or that what appears in the accusation would ever be sanctioned by Ferrari corporate under any circumstance. The fact that Ferrari's system connects to the factory is probably important as it allows for a paper trail and serves to prevent this kind of fraud as long as someone is watching. I look forward to their response to these allegations.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  4. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Just think about using your supercar for a full year or 14 months as a DD (winter and all) and then spin it back to the last service mileage or so before consigning your 'delivery mileage' princess back to the dealer. No one would know and it would allow ownership at virtually no cost. Its just a few bytes of memory and I'm sure you don't need a factory connection to execute the changes with the right knowledge.

    The factory would never play a role in this. In fact, they likely make it hard as possible for amateurs to make those kind of changes. It would place suspicion on every car sold and hurt the reputation of the brand.
     
  5. vinny84

    vinny84 Formula Junior

    Nov 20, 2008
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    Yep. More and more I'm thinking this guy is just butt hurt because he lost his $200k/Year salary to someone with no knowledge of the brand and is not as enthusiastic as he was. Or maybe the dealer is the one doing the rollbacks and tell their workers it was authorized by Ferrari? Who knows. Also looking forward to Ferrari Spa response to this
     
  6. AClark

    AClark Formula Junior
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    Jan 22, 2017
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    I'll jump on the " there is more to this story than we know " train.

    The DEIS is used for diagnosis , reseting the SERVICE counter to zero, as well as remote sessions with the factory for whatever reason.

    In my experience, when I had an instrument cluster replaced, it came in sans programming, the DEIS was used to transfer the information from my previous cluster to the new cluster, mileage and all. I do not believe they could have adjusted the miles during the transition.

    I have zero belief this is anything more than an isolated instance.

    Now, on the other side of this.... what if.... every Ferrari owner and Dealership
    Filed suit against " Bud " for defamation ... because now as a Ferrari owner who's trying to sell a car, has a bunch of worried buyers who now because of HIS claims , HIS attorney frivolous statements, and unsubstantiated news articles based upon HIS claims , I cannot get a fair market value for my car... actual damages..... etc

    Bud should be concerned , IMO that this may come back to him several times over.

    Back to reality, I am interested to hear the rest of the story....

    Andy
     
  7. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    #32 TheMayor, Feb 27, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
    I actually had this thought....

    IF a mechanic took a bribe from a customer and somehow could reset the mileage, then why isn't Ferrari SUING the customer????


    But its worse. His lawyer is claiming this "could be" ROUTINE, thereby damaging Ferrari's world wide reputation and everyone who owns a car.


    "The development, distribution and licensing of a device which authorizes and empowers Ferrari dealerships and technicians to perform illegal odometer rollbacks on Ferrari vehicles is patently irresponsible and brings into question the legitimacy of Ferrari odometer readings worldwide."

    THAT is complete BS.
     
  8. Nativetroy

    Nativetroy F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari may be different, but when I worked with Ford, we didn't have a way to reset odometers. If I had to replace a instrument cluster, i had to call it on and send a copy of the RO with mileage. The new cluster came programmed.
    You could drop a used cluster in with less mileage, but that was it.
     
  9. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    #34 WCH, Feb 27, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017

    Had the dealership managed the "handoff" properly, and passed me along to an experienced salesman like Bud, I'd have no complaint. It was strange and unprofessional IMO. Bud is not some guy who works for a car dealership, he has very significant experience with the marque and the small Ferrari world. Bud himself should have called me. Handled badly. Too much drama.
     
  10. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

    May 29, 2016
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    Guys, I wouldn't waste any time thinking about this. All you have is a press report of a lawsuit by a terminated employee. At so many levels this is not something that you should waste any time on.

    First, it is a press report. Only a press report. Not to play into Trump's argument, but you have to be very careful in paying attention to the news. There is fake news now. Even if it is real news, it is often wrong. Frankly journalists are not brain surgeons. I have been quoted in the press (including the WSJ) and i have never, ever had the story be totally accurate.

    Second, if you assume the press report is both true and accurate, then it is merely a report of a lawsuit. Anybody can sue anybody at any time for anything and there is no requirement the facts alleged are true. So there is no guaranty of veracity of the lawsuit. Often employees use lawsuits to leverage settlements from employers.

    When and if there is actually a resolution of this matter in a court of law (which is highly unlikely) then go read the judgment and draw your own conclusions. Until then i would say, ignore it and focus on enjoying your ride.
     
  11. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    This is just his lawyer's strategy and a poor one at that. His attorney didn't even know the proper venue to file the case in. This is a discrimination case, which is light on actual discrimination claims so his lawyer used a series of sensational claims to make his case.

    To protect themselves, the dealership hired Root back. That is a smart tactic if an Employment Agreement is restrictive. In this case it doesn't seem to be restrictive enough..... Root just seems to be trucking along complaining about not getting his office back.

    What Root and his lawyer want is for the Dealership to put money on the table to make this go away......it is that simple. As to the claims and suing a former customer who has a less than stellar reputation.....why not? When you have a lousy case....you sue everyone who has money because some folks will settle just not to have their name in the press again.

    Root and his lawyer need to be careful at this point because alleging criminal activity will almost most likely end up with them getting nothing and a counter suit for torturous interference and slander. My guess the people he is suing have a lot more money than Root has and this will end badly for him.....which is sad.
     
  12. pm83a

    pm83a Rookie

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    Oh boy, puts Ferrari in the news, maybe they will sell more FF's and GTC's now
     
  13. LI2782

    LI2782 Formula Junior
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    Is ft lauderdale the same ownership as FoLI still?
     
  14. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    The Mail Online story is a dreadful piece of, I can't really call it journalism. There are no attempts to investigate, contact other sources, or provide context. It's just a report on suit that has been filed, much of it unsourced.

    I don't know anything about Bud Root or odometers, but I do know this. There are thousands of people working at Ferrari dealerships around the world. Many of them leave to other things. None of them are bound by an omerta. In the age of the internet and social media, does anyone really think there could be a global conspiracy directed by the most prestigious car company in the world - the most prestigious brand in the world - and carried out by these staff around the globe, on an ongoing and thorough basis, overtly to break the law in such an eaaasily traceable way and defraud people?

    If so, I have some interesting theories about 9/11 and the history of the universe to sell you.

    Sure there are ways of rolling back the miles and people do them. Maybe even people with prancing horses on their overalls. But, really. This isn't dieselgate where a handful of people in senior positions needed to know. This is McDonalds telling all its staff to short change all its customers around the world. And it's true because it appears in an exceptionally sloppy piece of writing in that bastion of truth, the Daily Mail?
     
  15. GatorFL

    GatorFL Moderator
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    Bud went to Ferrari Palm Beach when it opened.

    As far as I know FoLI still owns Ft Laud.
     
  16. cmotorsports

    cmotorsports Rookie

    Feb 25, 2017
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    Watching the on line Videos of how easy it is to rollback the odometers was unbelievable. It makes me doubt every low mileage exotic not just Ferrari. It seems that you can roll back any modern Exotic with an OBD 2 and digital speedometer. Is there any way to know if the mileage has been reset? No internal system that the manufacturers can check? If not, why wouldn't this be wide spread? The manufacturers would lose millions from warranty claims.
     
  17. 2HotShoes

    2HotShoes Karting

    Sep 2, 2015
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    Obviously this odom reset gizmo works in reverse as well and I have solid evidence! I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line, for whatever reason, somebody rolled the mileage FORWARD on Guido, our 550 (aka my wife's "sleek Italian gigolo"). I know this because Guido's odom reads ~45,000 miles and the car still looks, drives, even smells, new. And everybody knows a modern Ferrari with 45,000 miles on it is ready for donation or even the dumpster, right? This MUST be true because I keep hearing it...:)
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Your own state requires it by law in the event of an odometer replacement. Every instrument repair shop in the country has the ability to do it. If you have the ability to set it a 22325 miles you have the ability to set it at 22 miles.

    This ability has been widespread since the invention of the odometer. It is nothing new, only the knowledge of it by a few is new.


    Ferrari NA and Ferrari spa had zero to do with this. This is a lawyer on a fishing trip. More fake news perpetrated by greed and an unknowing press.
     
  19. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    when I was looking at 308's 15+ years ago about half of them the odo didn't work, simple disconnect.
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    It's amazing that some seem to think this is something new.
     
  21. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    This is something the factory should have exclusive access to change IMO. It should require a very secure connection or method for doing it. Just having a tool and getting an OK over the phone is a pretty bad idea.
     
  22. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    It should be a very regulated thing and nothing a dealer simply has access to.
     
  23. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    I read an article by a dealer who pointed out that the actual miles readout is paired with a unit in the cars electronics, as i understood it, you could not alter the miles in the software, even if you rolled back the miles on display.

    If you changed the miles display with a unit from another car it shows up as not the original paired unit. It warns of a fox in the hen house-The stored miles in the software was not accessable to alter ( unless by some well guarded means )
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    They always have, since the dawn of the automobile. Why change now? Because you just now found out?

    Locksmiths make keys and pick locks, should that only be entrusted to the FBI?
     
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #50 Rifledriver, Feb 28, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
    A little truth but only a little. Only some have it and the unit that records that is quite commonly changed and its recording ability is not designed as a legal record but for diagnosis and information for servicing.



    Odometer roll backs have been happening since the first second hand car was sold. This isn't news, it's posturing on the part of a lawyer looking for a big payday.
     

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