A belt under the microscope | FerrariChat

A belt under the microscope

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 11506apollo, Feb 10, 2017.

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  1. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
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    Oct 16, 2008
    2,493
    Tx Co Ca
    #1 11506apollo, Feb 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have always wanted to look at the surface of our 3x8 belts under an optical microscope. We have a fully equipped failure analysis lab, and some of the techs are car enthusiasts as well, so they are onboard with this project, doing some work after hours. I posted something here a few months ago, and one of you volunteered to send me a used pair of belts. So, I got these two belts from this person and I am now beginning to look at them and take pics. I intend to post the pics here. my idea behind this is to disseminate the images, and the knowledge and stir discussion regarding our belts and how they age. and wear. I am not advertising the firm I work for, and I am not after anything....just to publish these images for our collective benefit. The belt has 10,500 miles and was installed in Nov 2015, and removed in Dec 2016 according to the owner.
    I will post images slowly, as I gain access to the optical microscope. If conditions are right, I may even attempt in the near future, to put a section of it inside our SEM (Scanning Electron Microscope) just for the heck of it.
    These two photos are preliminary. I intend to take more. I am just starting this. More to follow. If someone could send me a failed/broken belt, that would be fun to photograph too.
    For those of you whom may not be familiarized with these microscopes, at the bottom right side of each pic there is a small horizontal white line. 2000um means the white line has a length of 2 millimeters in the pic, 1000um means the white line has a length of 1 millimeter in the image. hope this helps visualize the size of the filaments used in the manufacture of the belts. I could not see any significant cracks by examining the belt's surface, but the wear is obvious.
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  2. JSBMD

    JSBMD Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2007
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    The OC
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    John
    Very cool!

    Thanks for doing this
     
  3. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    Claudio, very neat!

    Some pointers, while the rubber fabric blend will wear on the surface the cracking you're looking for is actually buried in the belt, it's the aramid or fiberglass fiber 'rope' that is wound on the form the makes up the belts tensile construction, think of it like belting in a tire. That 'rope' is what actually carries the load.

    It may be difficult to expose the cording inside the belt as it's molded into it when constructed.

    What materials do you normally work with in the lab?
     
  4. Nader

    Nader Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2011
    990
    East of Seattle
    Reminds me of John Steinbeck's "The Pearl." When Kino, a poor fisherman, takes an enormous pearl to market, a corrupt dealer puts it under a magnifying glass to show Kino how chalky and low in quality the pearl is, to trick Kino into a lower price. Kino didn't know all pearls look like that under magnification.

    Not that you're this merchant, I'm just reminded of the story. Carry on.
     
  5. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    Interesting, but before you conclude that the wear is obvious you need a control for comparison. Take some photos of a new belt.
     
  6. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
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    Correct. I would like to take pics of a new belt and also other belts with different milleages on them. My vision is to produce a curve of milleage x age x pics and damage.
     
  7. 11506apollo

    11506apollo Formula 3
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    We work mostly with ferrous metals including carbon steel, low alloys, high strenghy, cr Molly, stainless, composites, non-ferrous etc. prety much anything manmade.
     
  8. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Jun 11, 2004
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    Not to dismiss your effort as it would be an interesting study, buy I believe you will have a hard time making any correlation based on mileage and age. More significant factors are variations in belt tension, contamination, other related mechanical failure, and abuse. I uses the term abuse loosely in reference to a car that is used for touring with engine running mostly in the 3 to 4k rpm range compared to a car that is frequency tracked with rpm near red line frequently.

    Belt failures seem to come in two types. Shearing of the cogs which is often due to some form of fluid contamination, like oil, and failure relates to some other factor, such as failure of a cam drive pulley bearing causing the belt to misalign and subsequently ride up on the pulley fence and be cut, then snap. (I am all too familiar with the latter :( ).
     
  9. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
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    #9 andyww, Feb 12, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have posted this before here but worth mentioning again:

    I was speaking to someone at a car event last year who had a new belt fail owing to a manufacturing fault. Dayco admitted this, but refused to pay any compensation for the damage.

    It turns out that the belts are made on a very wide "buck" which contains many belts and they are then sliced down into the width of each belt. Each belt has a series of numbers which indicate its location on the buck before it was sliced off (example picture).

    The failed belt had "001, 002, 003" etc, meaning it was the one right at the edge, and had not been corded properly. Dayco admitted that they should be discarding the first belt on the buck, and the last. We dont know how high the numbers go up to but anyone receiving a belt with "001" should discard it.
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  10. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

    May 18, 2004
    10,406
    So, you work at a place where you can use SEM facility for your own private amusement / personal activity ?!

    Wow --- you must be the owner of the place ! ;)
     
  11. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Wow! Only 11 months. Was this a failure or was there another reason for removing this particular belt?
     
  12. waymar

    waymar Formula 3

    Sep 2, 2008
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    The belts were off my 308GTSi. They had 10,500 or a bit more miles about 13 months. They were in good shape when I removed them. I was pulling them for other reasons. I would have left them on the car but in the interest of the original thread I felt it was a good time donate them. When I removed them they looked good to the naked eye.
     
  13. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Nice thread, thanks for sharing!
     
  14. Tinbender

    Tinbender Formula Junior
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    Mar 13, 2004
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    We need to see a new belt
     
  15. It's Ross

    It's Ross Formula 3

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    That's good information to know. It would be nice to know what #s appear at the other end of these "bucks".
     
  16. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If possible, it would be extremely interesting to examine a belt that came from the edge of the production buck. Might the filaments on the very edge be an accident waiting to happen?
     

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