FERRARI VS TURBO

Here in Europe, 80% of new cars are turbocharged, diesel and gasoline.

I have a BMW Z4 2.0 litre, Gasoline, turbocharged, 184 HP. Average mileage (not test, real use I do, 70000 km already done) is 16 km/lt (37,8 MPG). Not bad for a two liters gasoline turbocharged engine. A turbocharged road car engine has many horsepower at very low RPM so in the standard use you can stay low with PRM and the mileage goes up: it's real, no fake.

Also in the 488, you can go (very) fast without passing the 3000 RPM line.

During year 1983 the BMW 1,5 liter Formula 1 engine had 1200 HP in qualifying mode: means that 33 years ago a turbocharged engine had 800 hp per liter. Thanks God the energy for the turbocharger wasn't free, or it had a million HP...

Anyone can have his opinion, of course: but I just wrote facts.

A fact is that at mid-low RPM a turbocharged engine has much more power and efficiency than a Natural Aspirated engine: not just on the test bench, on the road too.

This said, you can still prefer NA engines, why not, but turbocharger is the present and the future of internal combustion engines.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Maserati and Alfa Romeo at present don't have a single NA engine on the market. And no V8 Ferrari today is (and never will be again) NA

ciao

 

There is much seriousness (pinky out) going on in this thread, so I thought I would inject a little levity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1hEQbGRJ_Q

 

I think the relevant words are what you wrote in the OP- what attracted you to Ferrari was the watchmaker like precision required for high revving NA motors.

I guess the question is weather this is the same for many others.

I've always thought Ferrari is a dream. And everyone has a different take on a dream. I'm with you, I'd much prefer NA in a dream car like a Ferrari.

Wait, I hear someone saying F40. Love the F40. But its motor was designed for racing. The newer ones are designed for corporate reasons. That just loses some of the romance for me.

My opinion is the future is not turbo charging- that is the present. The future is hybrid. This way you get NA sound and even faster throttle response and better emissions. Battery tech will get better and electric does have a grip on the younger generation's imagination.

Ferrari to increase hybrid offerings starting in 2019

No matter what, I think Ferrari knows it can continue to succeed if they build an inspiring and aspirational product. The question for each of us is whether or not this is our dream. I find the possibilities with hybrid to be fascinating, if they can get past the weight penalty...

 

I agree with you on Ferrari being successful long into the future, if they know how to do one thing, that is create a market that does not live purely on performance.

But, weren't the hybrids also designed for corporate reasons first in racing and then in road cars?

As much as I admire hybrid technology, we could be talking it with the same emotion as we do a coffee pot or washing machines. Keurig vs. Chemex/Bruville/laser drilled filter pour over with custom grind.

As soon as driving precision, with speed a natural by-product, becomes more computer driven and instant then our emotional connection and gratification becomes like that to an appliance.

A single minded focus towards speed has produced some of the most remarkable and boring sports cars and supercars the world has ever seen.

 

There is a saying: "There is art in simplicity."

A high revving, high power NA engine represents getting more done with less and the constant struggle to squeeze more performance from a simple system, which requires ingenuity and accuracy, much like a well crafted mechanical watch.

A turbocharged system represents adding more complexity and ambiguity as the performance characteristic of the system drastically changes with the adjustment of boost. It's almost as if the engine does not have an identity, but is aided "externally" to find its character. It represents getting more done with more, which can be perceived as sloppy and less artistic although it does take ingenuity and accuracy to get a turbo motor to feel like an NA motor, which is a bit ironic.

NA engines generally have a smoother and more predictable powerband, which many appreciate and find more pleasant to drive. The engine's voice isn't muffled by their turbocharged counterpart. It feels and represents something more natural.

 

One thing I'd like to add to this thread is this. To describe the current line of Ferrari turbo engines as being less advanced, less sophisticated and less of a technical achievement is way off. While I don't know exactly which internals are used, one can be pretty sure that they feature similar components, but with different spec. Here's what I think is in both.

Forged pistons
Forged crank
Forged rods
CNC cams
Inconel exhaust valves
Titanium intake valves
Tuned intake plenum and runners(A Ferrari strong point)
Aluminium block
Aluminium heads
State-of-the-art combustion chamber technology(A Ferrari stong point)
5 stage dry sump lubrication
Same type of DFI, albeit a difference in generation spec


I completely fail to see what makes the turbo a lesser engine physically. As for technology, it's the same. To make an engine perform like the 488 turbo engine does, is no easy feat. We're talking next to no lag, advanced turbine and turbine plumbing technology, and heat management here. I'd say it's about as demanding to make a turbo engine perform on this level as it is to design a great N/A engine. It's not different than finely tuning the intake of the N/A counterparts. It takes a good engineer to do both.

It's a poor comparison to use whatever "homegrown" super power Nissan and Lambo engines out there as a comparison. They are not the same, and to in absolutely no way perform like the 488 engine. And just like you can make a cheap NA engine that either is very powerful, but performs oddly and is not very nice to live with, or a low power smooth running NA engine, so can one do with a turbo engine.

To say that it's easy to make a turbo engine perform like the 488 engine does, is ridiculous. It's as much of a high performance engine as the 458 counterpart. The 488 engine is as comparable to a BMW 520 turbo engine, as the 458 is to a BMW 520 N/A engine.

You may not like Ferrari turbo engines, but don't make them out to be something they're not.

 

+1:

This is what every car enthusiast should think: I'm very disappointed that there is someone, in a Ferrari car forum, that can think different than that was written by you, DK308. You wrote a simple and full of wisdom speech.

You can prefer what you want, of course: there are people who likes stamps more than Ferrari and girls, so it's not strange at all that someone can prefer a NA engine over a turbocharged one! Everyone has his own taste, of course. But you cannot say that girls sucks or it's easy having sex with miss Universe just because you prefer stamps...

And someone should drive a 488 before writing anything else: or, at least, visit Ferrari factory, to learn about something.

 

I would in no way say the 488 engine 'sucks' but would I take a 458 Speciale over one? Yes without a second thought.

While there is a lot of impressive technology in a Ferrari turbo engine, I to agree with Kens post above ^^^

Even with no perceptible lag (most of the time) it still will not feel as responsive as a high compression naturally aspirated engine. Less/different sound and less rpm doesn't help the experience, even if output is higher. (in my opinion).

 

Please be honest: How many of you did ever drive an hi performance turbocharged engine? I mean Porsche, Ferrari, Mc Laren or a GTR, not a Bmw

 

I've driven from stock twin turbo 911's to 1500hp domestics. Built many turbo systems myself and owned several turbo cars.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are fun but if we are talking about a Ferrari my preference is high strung, super responsive, high rpm and naturally aspirated.

 

Then I don't understand any of you. Different people, different taste. 488 hasn't almost any lag: Gilles Villeneuve managed 1s long lag and was enthusiast of the extra power he had, that allowed him to win races, that was the most important thing, not a bit faster response. A Ferrari must be faster than the competitors, that's the most important thing. I appreciate the boost that a turbo car offers, I feel it more emotional than any NA engine. More emotional on the road, faster on a track. This is my opinion: Just an opinion, of course.

Ciao

 

You should be able to understand that people have their own preferences. Otherwise there would be just one car and we would all buy it.

 

A cam or a variable intake is also an "accessory" that can create hp. It's all a complete system. Just because one makes its power using a turbine driven compressor, does not necessarily make it less high strung or less high performance than the N/A engine. To make a turbo engine live in the conditions the 488 engine has to, means it has to be just as well engineered and built. The turbo engine may use a lower static compression, but it has equally a high cylinder pressure and therefore a dynamic compression equal to the N/A engine. Due to this, you still need all the right things in the top end. Good combustion chamber design to avoid detonation and get a good mix, proper valve seat angles, high spring pressure with light springs and valves etc. An interesting thing to note is, that the limit to both the 488 and a 458 engine, both with turbos, seems to be around the 750 hp mark without any mods. If you want to take either beyond that, modifications are needed. In the case of the 458, lower compression pistons is the first thing I'd think. Then there's cams better suited for turbo chargers etc. For the 488, a new turbo is needed, and maybe the same things as the 458, e.g larger injectors, possibly some bottom end upgrades. So in essence, specific N/A output does not tell the whole story, and does not define whether or not an engine is a high performance engine compared to a turbo engine. They both are high performance engines in the case of the 488 and 458.

 

Yes of course there is still a ton of engineering with a turbo engine, for me it's just the all around attitude of a naturally aspirated engine that I prefer. By high strung I mean the feeling of response and the rpm capability. Soften up the compression and lower the rev limit makes it feel more pedestrian even if it has a lot more power.

I would bet anything you would not need to go into the engine internals to make WAY more than 750hp on the 488 engine. Definitely would not want/need to lower the compression, it's already low. Cams would be fine as well.

Turbocharger upgrade would make a lot more power at the expense of response. Would need to test efficiency of the entire system to see what you're starting with before making any decisions.

 

My point is not so much how the engine "feels" on a subjective level. What I'm getting at, is the basic idea of saying that the high performance turbo engines are not as high performance as their N/A predecessors. And the fact that some say the Ferrari turbo engines are basic and lazy technology, really grinds my gears. That's just such an ignorant statement.

From what I understand after talking to those who had tried, the 488 really is done at 780-790 - and those numbers call for a cool day and some pretty good fuel. At that point, the systems are simply not capable anymore. Heat, fuel, knock etc. that's what is described. And if I were to do a big tune on a 488, I'd replace the turbo, as one can be sure that it was not meant for making 1000+ hp. I'm sure the pistons and heads will be okay with a 1000 hp setup, so will they in the 458 if it could breathe enough air - without detonating. This would be possible with lower compression pistons. But the fact that part of the turbo and intake system is run close to max is one of the reasons why it works so well at 670 hp. Turbo, cam, plumbing, injectors, valves, head ports etc. is designed to work up around the 650-700 hp mark.

That's exactly why many of those high power Lambos and what have you, are quite horrid to drive. And this is also exactly what makes the 488 engine so good. Everything is a match, and was designed to run as fast as possible, be as light as possible, be as responsive as possible, and so forth - including fairly aggressive cams and high compression for a turbo engine.

Yes it does feel different than an N/A. Imo, not better or worse, just different. When I say high strung, I mean that the engine is running close to max of what it was designed for, thus making it responsive. I will agree that it's different than the 458 engine, but it's still a very responsive and exciting engine. One of my impressions were that when you put your foot in it, it kicks you a lot more in the rear than the 458 does. The 488 is super responsive and blisteringly quick.

 

I think we are in agreement for the most part on the technical side of the discussion. I certainly wouldn't call it lazy engineering. I'm sure they had goals and met them.

Agreed that the power limits are due to likely maxing the turbos. As you mentioned, being sized without a ton of overhead maximizes response.

 

that's 100% correct!

But the discussion is something about "what a sh@it the new turbocharged 488 engine if compared to the old 458 NA one"

I just don't understand why someone can think that, not that someone can say "I like the 458 engine more than the 488 one": this is ok, both engines have plus and minus, of course.

It's the third time I wrote that everyone has his own taste. Red, white, black, grey, blue, green, yellow: many colors for many different taste, of course.

So I have the same your opinion!

ciao


PS
the 750 hp figure comes (by voice, it's unofficial, of course) from inside Ferrari tech dept: the engine was detuned to avoid commercial problem to the F12 (that was the 740 HP Ferrari flagship at the time of 488 introduction). 900 hp will burn the engine very quickly (they tried a 1000 hp at the bench and the engine blew), but 750 is still ok for the hardware. Just the Getrag 7DCL750 gearbox would suffer a bit, reducing its life, but not too much (it's rated at 750 Nm max torque)

 

Well enough. I don't quite think it was going in the direction of "what a sh@it the new turbocharged 488 engine if compared to the old 458 NA one" but I guess you could read it that way, LMAO

 

No. The 750 number I'm quoting, is from people who tried to tune a 488 beyond that on a dyno. After 770, it became pretty impossible. There's also a few members here with the same experience.

As for detuning it because of the F12? Well it's already a lot faster than the F12, so not sure I follow you there. If anything, I think they leave something on the table for the 488 VS and to keep it below the F12 "M". And again, if they increase the hp, they also make it more peaky and less linear in its power delivery.

 

Not necessarily. The aftermarket seeking peak power will alter how it's delivered, but Ferrari built this around a target number and invested a lot of engineering to make it perform. Guaranteed they already have the next engine in this series already designed along with an NA counterpart (probably NA/hybrid). A culmination of factory modifications may not alter power distribution across the rev range at all.

One of the very first things the aftermarket does is adjust timing and fuel without an increase in boost pressure for efficiency that will increase power across the range. These take the existing components and push them to their potential at a cost of fuel. Ferrari isn't exactly looking to make frienemies of the EPA. I only bring this up because they could raise the MON octane requirement to 93 for peak performance and work the ECU to pull timing back on 91 MON. That's a well known consumer trick.

The bigger question in my mind without continuing to increase displacement of an NA motors is will this be the only turbo motor in the current engine family before the NA/hybrid powertrains debut or are they investing into a second model, a stop gap until the NA/hybrids are ready?

 

Yes, I understood what you wrote. That confirms what a Ferrari factory technician told me, in person: 750 HP is the engine structural limit and the 670 HP power was chosen ALSO to leave the flagship with an higher power figure.

The torque output has been calibrated (also) to stay around the Getrag gearbox rated limit too, to avoid torque peaks much over the 750 Nm (553 lbft), as they have to give a warranty on the gearbox too and Getrag denied any warranty with torque peaks much over that limit

ciao

 

Sir, I like the cut of your jib, (I may have to ship some QV wheels to you). Agree, you have to drive a boosted exotic to appreciate the difference, no words can convey the response and torque curve "feel". (In case you don't know my car, Supercharged 85 308QV Euro, 130hp/liter, 331rwhp dyno. All in the small, light & nimble 308 platform, it's simply astonishing to drive).

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/album.php?albumid=99

-Ciao