The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 383 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,612
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I would like to know why so many post contradictory comments about the engine mounts being terrible and yet laud the people/ organisation that must have fitted them..........
     
  2. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,243
    Zanskar, Kargil district, Ladakh, India
    Full Name:
    Vincent Vangool
    Lets be honest, they are what they are.

    Whoever lauded the person that fitted them? in the first place no one knows who the person that fitted them was?

    Has anyone ever said whoever put those engine mounts on was an artist? A perfectionist? The closest assumption to that would be that Ferrari did it, and even when that was a belief people still remarked how crude they were, that they were a quick solution to assmble the car to get it into testing so they could build the remaining P4's. But I don't think I have once seen anyone? call them brilliant work?

    Correct me if I am wrong???

    My point in mentioning those is that they are not up to the standards that technom holds for his work, whether Ferrari did that work, or Piper? I don't think anyone here has ever claimed them to be a work of perfection?

    So honestly, I don't get your point?
     
  3. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 28, 2005
    4,119
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Full Name:
    Gordon
    David Piper is lauded; if DP003/0846 is a replica where the frame was built for Piper, then the engine mounts must have been created by Piper, as they existed when the frame was sold to JG.

    As to the question of how much of the original 0846 would be required for a rebuilt car to still be called 0846 - very little is required. The perfect illustration of this is the 375+ 0384 that we had a long-running thread about http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/114840-375-0384-a.html - it was a rusted out portion of a chassis that was sent off to Europe, then sent by Swaters to Ferrari Classiche to be rebuilt. From the pictures of the rusted remains, I expect that very little was actually used to rebuild the car currently presented as 0384, yet Ferrari rebuilt it as 0384 without question.
     
  4. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,243
    Zanskar, Kargil district, Ladakh, India
    Full Name:
    Vincent Vangool
    I must be missing something? So if you can explain further it would be appreciated?

    When did anyone ever give praise to the fabricator of the engine mounts? Whether Piper or not?

    I can not remember one instance when someone on either side of the coin said that it was exemplary work?

    Sure, people said that may be the way Ferrari did it to go racing? But whoever said it was perfection and the constructor did an excellent job?

    The closest I can remember anyone saying is they did what they had to do to get racing fast, and that Ferrari must have known what they were doing?
     
  5. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2004
    7,186
    FL, NY, and MA
    Full Name:
    Joe
    I don't know what engine mount story you're looking for answers to but here's what I believe to be true from all the documents and relevant statements I've seen:

    Piper stated in a video interview he had spare or cast aside (P4) engines that intended to use in his replica chassis. Keep in mind he was actively campaigning this car worldwide (Japan, South Africa, Bahamas, UK, and France) nearly a decade after it was initially designed. I believe that in order to stay competitive as the car got older he needed to alter the geometry to allow the car to handle/perform better so he had the mounts changed along with the position of the engine/wheelbase. It makes sense and fits the facts more than the other version of how the mounts came to be... that, as JG believes, the mounts his DP003 chassis are indications of an alteration from a P3 chassis to P4 "Per Technical Data Sheets". We know that cannot be true because Forghieri has stated in writing the mount alterations absolutely were NOT Ferrari. Other Ferrari experts have said the same thing.


    I understand your point of repairing versus replacing and would agree in most other situations - but this one was unique. Piper initially had direct access given by Ferrari to the original materials and expert builders so it would have been far easier to start from scratch than to take down a bent/burnt chassis and replace bits of it. Later on when the "crudely added" engine mount alteration was performed - Piper wasn't as directly connected to have those changes done.



    This is a great question that there probably isn't an answer for. I'd love for there to be an "official" percentage of documented original car parts to be "the car" - but we know that doesn't happen. And with that in mind - what if someone buys another DP copy and bolts in the original 0846 steering wheel Justin knows the current owner of. Does that mean DP0900 is "also" 0846?!
     
  6. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2004
    7,186
    FL, NY, and MA
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Again - Forghieri reviewed photos of DP003 and said of the engine mounts: "Never the factory could accept the schowed[sic] solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."
     
  7. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    2,344
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Dave Powers
    Gentlemen,

    This has been covered again and again in the thread:

    The single determining criterion for the identity '0846' is the chassis.

    Cheers to anyone who can find or possess engine, drivetrain, suspension, body or other pieces- but as per long-established international convention regarding historic race cars,
    the chassis is the car


    That, of course, opens the question as some have mentioned, 'How much of the chassis is enough'?

    I think we would all like to know if any of 0846 survives, and if it does, where it is.
    If we can ever cross that threshold we can then profitably entertain the hypothetical question of 'How much is enough'.

    For now it seems we're still in the discovery phase: Does any exist and if so, where?


    Carry On and Forza Ferrari!
     
  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
    503
    Correct. And you can be certain that the buyer asked him every single detail about the car's production and history and just payed after having seriously checked.
     
  9. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 28, 2005
    4,119
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Full Name:
    Gordon
    Nobody ever said the modified engine mountings were praised or lauded - Timmy was pointing out the contradictory element that the owner of the replica that had it made, David Piper, was lauded, his shop that built up these and other replicas has been lauded, yet it was his shop that produced the half-assed engine mounts in DP003. No question about their origin, if the car is a replica built for and by Piper, then it was Piper's shop that created those poorly engineered and executed mounts before Jim purchased the car from Piper.
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,612
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    #9560 Timmmmmmmmmmy, Dec 7, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
    So if DP is to be lauded and the chassis of DP003 was definitely built by him or to his order/ plans, then why would he fit such a ****ty/ crap/ badly done/ Foghieri & Ferrari would NEVER have approved that modification (or whatever it has been termed by others) engine mount? Sorry, can't resist pointing out that contradiction. Back to it. Just realised that Gordon nailed it in a follow up post......

    As for Franco Sbarro, who's garage the chassis was in when MM had a gander at it, he was a modifier of Borgwards and others before becoming Ecurie Filipinetti's team manager. During the EF period he would have gotten enormous experience with the P cars that they prepared and raced along with GT40s and others. In later years he became noted for several things, firstly as a maker of outrageous customs for the Geneva show, as a builder of replica's and as a place to get an authentic restoration for a 1960s racer, especially GT40s. Like so many in the 1980s and 1990s the later two became slightly complicated when they became so valuable and he became embroiled in legal battles when he took a battered and burnt out but mostly original GT40 in for restoration and fitted the paperwork and chassis tag to a replica which was returned to the owner while the remains of the original car were built up into a second entity and sold to someone else. This happened more than once and Franco "successfully" argued that the paperwork and tag was what constituted the car. Ronnie Spain "The Marcel Massini" of GT40s covered all of this very well and the story is fascinating for anyone interested in racing cars of the period. And yes the question remains, what constitutes a car and that is a philosophical argument but at least some of the original chassis must be present to call it "real" imo.
     
  11. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
    2,346
    Cardiff. UK
    Full Name:
    Nick.
    your properly "special" aren't you

    your posts scream "school playground" with a kid running round shouting "I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know"

    If you know something Jeff then tell us
    If you don't then just shut the f*** up, because your not adding to the debate instead your simply trolling people suggesting you have information and wont pass it on.

    Asking for info or offering it - thats not spoon feeding, its simply fulfilling one of the primary tasks of internet forums - eg sharing of information.
     
  12. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2007
    6,544
    Edwardsville, IL
    Full Name:
    Jeff Kennedy
    Chaos,

    You are obviously thick as a brick and quite lazy for someone that claims to be an archeologist. You have raised a series of points for which it just might be possible to discern relevant information that could satisfy your curiosity. But to do that might require you to expend effort in trying to, on your own, chase for information.

    As much as you have made a point to denigrate Steve for all he did to shed actual light on this farce. He, so unlike you, actually did research and compiled extensive evidence. You have the same opportunity to expend your own energy too.
     
  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,386
    Texas!
    Gents, I don't think you're paying attention. There are people who possess the information you so strongly wish to have. However, given the legal bullying that has gone in the past, it is not in their best interest to answer your questions. You see, the people who know the facts are very much aware of what happened to John and Alicia Barnes along with Gerald and Carol Roush. Granted, Gerald wasn't in the best of health, but it is not too much of a stretch to assume the lawsuits contributed to his premature death. There is a dark side to obsession.
     
  14. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 22, 2004
    7,186
    FL, NY, and MA
    Full Name:
    Joe
    With that in mind, I wonder if JG is planning to sue Ferrari for not including DP003 in the Daytona 50th show as one of the original authentic winning cars.
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,386
    Texas!
    I'd like to see him try. :)
     
  16. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,243
    Zanskar, Kargil district, Ladakh, India
    Full Name:
    Vincent Vangool
    It's the internet. If info like this exists it can be shared in total anonymity. So why not share it that way?
     
  17. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,386
    Texas!
    If it was anonymous, you wouldn't believe it.
     
  18. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I think this thread needs to go away now. It's become a never ending story with the same things being brought up over and over. Many of these questions have been answered if one were to look back through the thread. I'm reading it only because I was hoping for new info or evidence, but sadly this has become a circus. Good day gentlemen.
     
  19. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

    Oct 6, 2007
    1,243
    Zanskar, Kargil district, Ladakh, India
    Full Name:
    Vincent Vangool
    If it was logical it would hold more water than saying somethings exists but not saying what.

    I do respect your above statement, sure people would want sources but if they were to stay anonymous, I gotta go with something is better than the whole thing.
     
  20. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

    Jul 1, 2009
    244
    quiet..........any new updates
     
  21. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    692
    Just one thing; it has been said several times recently that the transmission is not original. The one that JG bought with the car IS original, P3 type fitted to either 0844, 0846 or 0848 in 1966 or a spare. I have never seen another of this type.

    Paul M
     
  22. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #9572 PAUL500, Dec 8, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
    Anyone new reading this thread, you may as well stop at MuiraSV (Steve) last post with any period photos attached, then make up your own minds on the debate, it's just repeated noise from then on for page after page after page.

    It seems even Steve has given up on this thread, or maybe he found a horses head on his bed one morning :)

    The Pipers are clearly never going to publicly comment again on anything associated with this car or the original 0846 as they would have by now as the saga has been going on for many years, and nor do they have any obligation what so ever to do so either.

    No doubt privately or to people close to them they will be aware of the debate and have made comment, but again people in the know as a result have had more than enough time to put the info into the public domain and have chosen not to.

    So those flogging that dead horse need to accept it and move onto other areas of the debate, to claim the Pipers silence means they are automatically guilty of anything is ludicrous. If that were the case the parties in the sale/purchase of 003 would have hit the courts years ago, both sides have used the power of the law in the past.

    Even this thread has no validity what so ever with regards whether Jims car is or is not related to the original 0846, its simply interested bystanders gassing about the matter, no direct parties have any obligation to join into the thread.

    Jim last stated he would update the thread as and when, and nothing has been forthcoming since then.
     
  23. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    14,725
    Phoenix AZ
    Full Name:
    Justin
    Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it.

    Yes... I did point to you and ask you how much is enough not because I think you or me or any one person should be the end all be all on the car but I just wanted to know what YOU think. If we are engaging in a discussion... I just wanted to understand more of your side of the story and where you are coming from etc... get to know how you think.... And I thank you for cluing me in on it!

    I agree with you 100% that during a racing season that more than likely they would repair a chassis over replace it. Once its deemed unrepairable it gets thrown in the corner not out... but in the corner (don't want to give away the secrets) However, that is racing in period with dates and deadlines and shipping cars etc... time gets tight... compromises must be made. Once the chassis is damaged beyond repair and potentially (we don't know as we weren't there) deemed unsafe due to being crashed previously and now burnt... metal fatigue and putting a driver behind the wheel becomes slightly more questionable and thus scrapped (don't forget the old man was tried for murder and took several years to beat it)

    I guess what I am trying to say is that if 0846 was removed and shipped somewhere I think a plausible scenario would be that the chassis would be deemed unusable just like Ferrari thought.

    To your point of reusing things in racing. When you have the time, you don't reuse. When its your only choice... then yes the band aide is the solution and you reuse what you can for as long as you can.... but there is always a stopping point... the end of the season things don't reused. Crash damage isn't really left lingering. You have the time and you take the time... otherwise it rears its ugly head at a more inconvenient time again in the season.

    The point about the engine mounts is several fold

    1. they aren't original and not in style with what ferrari would have done with them.
    2. This is 2nd hand info, but I recently spoke with a NART driver and owner of a couple of these P cars and he stated that the mounts are completely wrong and nothing like he has ever seen on these kinds of cars.
    3. Its not just the mounts. Its the tubing/structure holding the mounts that are all wrong too leading to complete replacement of the car from the rear bulkhead back as evidenced by muiraSV posts

    Yes... we fix damaged cars and we fixed damaged race cars (not me specifically I mean it has been done throughout history). But we replace fenders. We cut and replace crash structure if we have to and it can be repaired properly. Cars that crash and catch on fire are almost always totalled especially high performance cars. The insurance company can not afford for the car to "break in half" or bend and get weird toe out situations on a high performance car at speed. At some point they are sanctioning and certifying the almost remanufacture of the car. They would rather just wash there hands of this. This is why ferrari will only sell certain crash structures to certain approved body shops. Limiting liability. Once it is deemed to large of a risk to repair and reuse... it is "totaled" just like what ferrari did originally and perhaps if 0846 did leave the lot it would have likely been looked at again and deemed useless. Which is why in my opinion there is no clear cut evidence of it in jims car. I only bring up this scenerio to discuss with you the "what happened to it question" Now again, this is just a plausabile theory. I have zero evidence to back it up... just like all of the other theories.

    Another plausible theory of the 0846 chassis number was that it was a number they could use on the carnet and not get in trouble for it. Many people only associate cost or taxation with the use of this number. People do not think that sometimes you can't bring in new parts without being labled a manufactuer or posting a bond or being on an "approved list" etc... There are all sorts of crazy regulations back then. So I think there is a good chance that there could have been a number of frames that used 0846 to move freely about. Again, all speculation. Just trying to supply a plausible idea of what Marcel could have seen.

    At the end of the day... I have an open mind. I actually would love for Jims car to be the genuine car. I deep down secretly hope its true. I think most of us do. We cherish this prancing horse and obviously the history so much. That is why there is so much discussion we cherish and protect this magical brand and its history. None of us want to see anything blemished or black marked or duped.

    Also, lets be perfectly clear, a car worth this much and this important to the Ferrari history... is going to be scrutinized. Any car sold as a replica turning into a real car is going to be criticized. Any car sold as a replica that is now a coveted lost winning car such as 0846 is going to come under real scrutiny.

    I will be open and honest... I am floored absolutely floored how people can say that the burden of proof is to disprove the car. The burden of proof is to PROVE that it is the genuine car. The points that have been provided have been heavily refuted and debunked and really what we are down to as "hope" that it is 0846 is 40 year old testimony of seeing a chassis being exported and a man who has in writing gone both ways on the topic. Again, all my opinion and my personal feelings
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Yeah it's not #0846 ...
    That implies they have proof that it is a replica as I'm sure Jim would not be upset otherwise.

    Therefore lets all leave this thread alone and the car is a replica until Jim provides real evidence saying otherwise.
    Pete
     
  25. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,386
    Texas!
    Hell no! This thread has been a slot machine for Rob Lay. :)
     

Share This Page