The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 381 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

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    #9501 Chaos, Dec 5, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
    I am an archaeologist yes - well I have a degree in the subject and have been on multiple digs etc.

    Yes we have to make conclusions based on evidence with chunks missing - though we accept (or I hope most do) that they are simply a best fit theory.
    Thats also why I dont mind an evolution or change in said theory too - and why I have a real issue with people claiming facts when its yet more supposition.
    Oh and why I dont like people willy waving and saying I have info which they then claim they cant give as its secret - as an academic I feel thats just wrong.

    I do feel you need to look at the picture as a whole and include as much as possible when making a theory (or debunking one)
    And for that reason I find the Switzerland siting to be of real interest
    We have DP the seller of the disputed car previously being seen to own a car that he himself has suggested to a reliable witness is #0846, the very car that JG has purported to be the hidden identity his car may actually be. And this is 10 years after said chassis said to have been scrapped and 13 yrs before JG purchased his car - so the timeline fits too (I may not have put that in the best fashion there, but it is gone 3am here)

    What it doesn't do is prove (or disprove) that the car DP sold to JG as 003 is in fact #0846, but it does open the possibility that it could be OR that the car may still exist elsewhere.

    Now we cant demand Piper tell us what happened, but it isnt wrong to suggest that Piper obviously knows more than he has let on.
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Assuming this is correct, why would David Piper sell what he thought was 0846 to Jim Glickenhaus?

    Yes, it's late for me too.
     
  3. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

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    I could come up with several reasons - but they would of course be speculative.
    Its even speculative to suggest that Piper thought it was the real 0846. He may well have done or alternatively it may have been some form of long con where he had one of his replicas stamped up as 0846 (although the timing is odd - because it occurs at least 2 yrs before the first of his replicas is said to have been revealed)

    Assuming it is true (for the purpose of this question) then we can firstly ascertain a few facts

    Piper has held onto the chassis for 13 yrs or more at this point, but never made its existence properly public

    Piper (or actually his wife initially) offered JG the opportunity to buy the car numbered 0900, which then became a wider choice of "heres what ive got, pick one" - so it was potentially out of DP's hands as to which car was chosen.

    heres where it becomes theories

    maybe Piper realised his long con wouldnt work - so removed most of the markings
    maybe he decided that even though he knew it was real no one would believe him
    maybe he thought JG is sure to pick the 0900 car as it has all the best bits on it

    its all maybes, there isnt enough evidence to come up with a cast iron theory for why or even a favourite. But it does at least give a few ideas as to why DP may have done it (assuming he did etc)
     
  4. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    What we do know is true (or believe to be true if you have faith in the word and knowledge of Massini) is that there was a frame that was either P3 or P4 en route to Piper years before his chassis were built that has now vanished into thin air?

    So where is this thing that was basically confirmed to exist by a very reputable source that has since vanished into thin air?

    Did parts end up in JG's chassis?
    Did parts end up in the other Piper chassis?
    Was it destroyed?

    I can't believe anyone that is interested in this mystery is not also interested in that mystery? Or that they can make any real judgements about if 0846 survived until they have a good understanding of what the Massini frame was and frankly what happened to it?

    Other than 0846, what frame could the Massini frame have been? From my knowledge there is no other option than 0846. But open to any other possibilities....
     
  5. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    #9505 JAM1, Dec 5, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
    I don't doubt for an instant Marcel Massini saw a chassis and associated paperwork labeled 0846 in 1977 as reported. He's probably the single most credible source in this wild tale. But I cannot understand the following:

    1) How people jump to the assumption the chassis Marcel saw was actually 0846 and not another replica chassis re-stamped for taxation/import/export reasons (knowing the original chassis had been destroyed and customs charges would probably never come due), or to keep quiet the fact that multiple copies were made when permission was only given for one (particularly that early in construction and when DP still had an active relationship with Ferrari).

    2) How people jump to the conclusion the chassis Marcel saw was in fact authentic and simply must have been used to create DP003 and only that chassis.

    3) Why people couldn't equally believe that chassis was later sold (in part or whole) to anyone else in the world at any point over the last 40 years, or could still be in Piper's possession today.

    4) How people believe David Piper being as savvy and familiar with P-series cars as he is (perhaps equally or more familiar with them as the other few legitimate experts worldwide) would have forgotten he used 0846 to build DP003 and mistakenly sold DP003 as a replica - leaving millions on the table.

    5) And perhaps the most distanced leap; why people believe IF David Piper actually used chassis 0846 to build DP003 he would have kept it a secret.

    a. Some say it could have been to avoid customs/tax - I find it highly unlikely since the car would have been so much more valuable the upside would have washed away any tax liability.

    b. Selling it as 0846 would have created an issue between David Piper and Ferrari. Enzo died a decade earlier and Piper was already 70 when this car sold to Jim Glickenhaus so I don't see what trouble it really would have caused for DP. Any statutes would have long since expired. In fact, I would imagine Ferrari would have been less aggravated by the resurrection of 0846 than they would three copies being made instead of the permitted one... particularly when one takes into account their affinity of crushing replicas they believe are "threatening" to SpA.

    c. Even if items "a" and "b" were possible, does anyone believe someone as well heeled as Glickenhaus wouldn't have purchased the car anyhow with a guarantee to cover any/all costs associated with blowback?


    The point is there are too many other equally or more plausible explanations regarding the chassis MM saw to leap to the idea DP003 contains some/all of 0846's chassis.
     
  6. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    How many othyer replica chassis were known to being built at that time? And why would Piper buy a replica chassis from some knock off manufacture if he was going to build his own? It's not like people were mass producing exact replica P4's back in the day?

    But if it was indeed a replica? Who built it up as a replica and how?

    Sure it's a possibility that it was indeed a replica, but where is any information pointing in that direction?
     
  7. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    Piper stated in a video interview the chassis for at least 0900 was built by Manicardi e Mesuri... hardly a "knock off manufacture". Many have stated some/all of the other chassis DP had built were constructed by Vaccari and Bosi - another company no one would refer to as a "knock off manufacture". It seems reasonable if Piper went to them with the stamped drawings provided by Enzo they would have built exact replica chassis... particularly when Mike Parkes was involved in overseeing construction while he was working at Ferrari. I believe in total there were three or possibly four chassis built in the 70's for DP.

    Who knows if Piper labeled one/all his replicas as 0846 as they were being shipped around to avoid taxes/customs issues. Quite frankly there is just as much a chance this happened as there's a chance David Piper forgot what he had and sold 0846 as a replica.
     
  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    We need to remember that out of the 4 chassis' that DP had made, only 2 were assembled into running cars at the time JG purchased DP003, so he could either purchase #0900 or DP003.

    I do not remember him having the opportunity to purchase #0900 and cannot be bothered to go back and see if this theory is true. Why he would not have purchased #0900 when he supposedly had the chance makes no sense to me as #0900 is NOT considered a replica and would have been what most consider a real P4? Surely better than knowingly purchasing a replica ... and yes JG states clearly that he knew he was buying a replica.

    As to Marcel's comments on seeing #0846's chassis. I do not recollect him investigating the chassis, just the paperwork so my memory has that he only saw the number #0846 on paperwork not on the chassis itself ... so the chassis could have been #0846 or #0900 or ? Please directly me to Marcel's post where he states seeing the chassis tag #0846.

    Lastly:
    1. If in 1977 DP had managed to get #0846, why would he build #0900? He wouldn't have, he would have restored #0846 and raced that instead, and #0900 would never have been made.
    2. DP has many times stated that JG has bought a replica.
    3. DP is a second hand car salesman, wheeler and dealer; if he had #0846, even 1/10th of #0846 he would have made money from that. That is/was his main skill, above even his driving ability.
    Pete
     
  9. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What ‘one piece of anything that has come from your research’ have you added to this debate? NOTHING!
    And who the hell are you to demand answers, when you are incapable/too lazy to do your own research?

    At the risk of repeating myself;
    Nathan
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    All good points and can only offer insight into two.

    1 - Great factual summary BUT why if DP knows where #0846 doesn't he or anyone that believes this car isn't that car verify that indeed the parts are elsewhere. The usual narrative by one group is that Jim must prove everything (possibly fair enough) while they can simply state DP knows where it is (the second part is stupid and a contradiction since we are also told it doesn't exist)

    2 - There is always the chance that by the time DP got the chassis it had been reduced to little more than centre section tubing and was built up by his mechanics from that.

    A bare chassis frame could potentially have been termed car parts and carried little if any duty on import as was common until fairly recently, I know when various parties bought 1950s racers like Coopers they would buy a kit and use that loophole. We don't know what quantity of car apart from a "chassis" was seen by Marcel but if indeed it was just some chassis tubing, it makes little sense to use a carnet.
     
  11. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

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    heres what JG said about it

    "This all began at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in 2000. I was there with my MK-IV J6
    which was driven to 4th OA. at Le Mans in 67 by Mark Donohue and Bruce McLaren. David
    was there with 0900.
    We were side by side in the staging area. Liz Piper noticed
    me looking at 0900 and said something along the
    lines of: "Write a check and it's yours".
    Later David invited my son and me to visit him in London and with an eye to buying one of his "P4's" We went. We looked and we went home.
    Back in NY I called my friend Alberto Pedretti who was the mechanic that Enzo Ferrari sent
    to the US to work with Luigi Chinetti and mentioned what I had seen, 0900, The Red Car,
    which David referred to as 0003 and a P4 chassis with nose and center section that was hanging from the ceiling. (0900a) "

    seems clear there was a choice of 3 cars offered.

    You do raise an interesting question though Pete, is 0900 considered a replica.
    you suggest its not, but equally ive seen many other postings saying it is - especially as Ferrari actually used the number on a 312PB

    Marcel has posted at least 2 or 3 times re this, obviously each version is slightly different wording.
    I believe this one was on the old forum but has been quoted as the following

    "... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work. Wheels were attached to car!
    I was shown the chassis number 0846 on the frame, right rear part.
    Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes. But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet.

    Marcel Massini"
    Now obviously this is a quote from a forum no longer accessable
    however MM does not allow himself to be misquoted (or his photos used) and quite rightly too.

    we now reach the realms of pure speculation, best guess etc and i've given potential answers already - but your points remain valid too.

    there is one other small fact that I found interesting
    there is a reported conversation between Doug Nye and the Pipers - it is heresay, but again like MM Doug Nye posts on here and has never disputed the report.

    Around 2004 Doug Nye asked DP about the origin of the chassis he sold to JG and reported that unlike previous discussions re his cars David's answer was not satisfactory, nor did it negate JG's theory re that its #0846. He also related that Liz Piper cut off any further discussion about the origin of the chassis David sold to JG.
     
  12. Chaos

    Chaos Formula 3

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    I believe we do know

    "I saw a more or less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work. Wheels were attached to car"
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Fair enough. Carry on.
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    what I've never figured out is why when Jim posts heavy about 0846 here, then Marcel tends to disappear from FerrariChat, but then once Jim stops posting then Marcel starts posting great information and prolifically. Marcel has had 500 posts in just 4 months and it is always solid stuff.
     
  15. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Are you suggesting that Jim and Marcel are like Bruce Wayne and Batman? Has anyone ever seen them together? Hmmm...

    :p
     
  16. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Or, more appropriate to your car, Robin Masters and Higgins? (but is Higgins indeed Robin Masters after all?...)

    Rgds
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    John Barnes thought Jim and I were one in the same for awhile and then that Jim owned FerrariChat. :)
     
  18. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #9518 Vincent Vangool, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    Sorry Piloti, but you were the first pot to call the kettle black, so >>>>again<<<< what is your major game changing contribution to this thread? Where has your great Ferrari author worthy research skill ever contributed one iota of groundbreaking research to this thread????

    Cause from where I am sitting there has been none by you and has never been, all you have contributed is spite and turned a discussion into an argument.. Just you spreading your vitirol accusing others of not contributing, chastising Jim G as being a fraud etc. As a matter of fact I can't remember a single instance where your "in depth" research has ever contributed a single thing? Which baffles me seeing that you consider yourself to be enough of an "expert"? on Ferrari to author books on them???

    You haven't contributed one thing except for turning this discussion into an argument, and you did that with your pettiness way before I ever entered the thread.

    And nowhere have I demanded any answers. Your thinking of Miura SUV. So nice try sport.

    We get it, you guys hate JG. But we are not here for that, I am just curious if 0846 survived, whether Jim G has it or not is not my concern, I am more interested if it survived and ended up anywhere? 0900 perhaps?
     
  19. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #9519 Vincent Vangool, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    Well, he did build 4 chassis, so.... Are you saying if he had 0846 he would not build the other 3 like he did? Seems like he would build more than one chassis if he had 0846 or not? Seems like Piper's goal was four chassis, not one.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #9520 PSk, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    That is just the wheeler dealer in DP, but I speculate that if he already had a real P4 he would not have bothered making any at all. He would not even have asked Enzo for the drawings. But since he didn't have a real P4 (?) he had to have one made, and of course DP being DP he had more made.
    That is extremely interesting.

    I cannot think of any reason why DP would not have said to the world he owned #0846 if he actually did. Even if DP stole #0846, Ferrari had thrown it out anyway ... you cannot steal something that is thrown away. The fact that Ferrari have crossed it off their books, does not matter too. That's just book work. Even if he had used it to con somehow millions from somebody, he was about to make millions more as over time these things just kept making more and more crazy money so he could have responded to a massive lawsuit with "I'm sorry, here you go have this amount".

    The only plausible theory as to why he's keeping quiet is that he has already sold #0846 to a important member of the Mafia and if he sold it again he would be murdered ;) :D


    Re Marcel's comments ... it does not matter anyway, even if the chassis tag said #0846 that does not imply it was actually #0846, so the only thing that matters is that in 1977 Piper was shipping a P4 real or replica.
    Pete
     
  21. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #9521 Vincent Vangool, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    Maybe? Maybe not?

    Speculation is only speculation....

    IMO what matters most is figuring out what the chassis Marcel saw was to the best of current knowledge. Knowing what that was would answer the above speculation IMO.

    More speculation but from my knowledge, Piper bought a ton of spares. My guess is part of his motivation once acquiring those spares was to build multiple frames to use all available spares. But again, just my guess. If he was a wheeler dealer first, one would have to think he would build as many cars as possible to sell, whereas if his intention was just to race one car, then he may just build one? But history shows he built four chassis, so that is what it is.

    To me the question to try to answer right now is what exactly did Marcel see back then?

    I think we all know that even if it was 0846, that does not make JG's car 0846. But at that point I would have to wonder where it ended up? I would have to think it ended up in one of the Piper chassis? Why would he not use it? And if it was in say one of the chassis that was never built up, why would he not sell it? It is not like he is getting any younger?

    I think it is important to establish the timeline and manufacturers involved in the construction of the Piper cars to get any clarification on this matter.



    As far as not being able to steal something if it is thrown away, it is only thrown away if it is in a garbage can. Them writing it off their books and placing it in their scrap yard isn't technically thrown away, it would still be in their possession whether written off the books or not.

    If their was a chassis tag that said 0846, there must be a reason behind that whether real or fake. If the tag did exist, then there was a specific reason it had that number. It was not by chance.
     
  22. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    Not to steer you off... but regarding your series of questions of what did piper do with 0846 if he did indeed have it.

    Well... if he had it... why did he sell it as a replica? this is the biggest point.

    Lets say Piper had it... maybe he got it back to his place and realized that there was just too much metal fatigue to repair. Maybe it was more work than just having a chassis manufactured... which is what he said he did... Also he had chassis made several times... so wouldn't it just be easier to make a new one instead of using an old bent up car that caught on fire? Every fabricator knows that there is a point at which you just ditch it and start over. This is a plausible scenario. I still don't think piper had the real 0846. but im just playing along and spitballing different scenarios to have an open mind

    Regarding "scrapping" 0846. Go around and take a look at lots of manufactures... they all have yards of "broken dreams" as many would call it. Ferrari in the 60s would be no different. They would never really just throw the chassis in the bin for fear of someone stealing there secrets... I mean holy **** just look at the start of an F1 season and all the curtains that come out and cover new rear diffusers etc...
     
  23. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    why hasn't anyone offered to buy my Jesus challace yet? WTF!?!?!?!

    Also still waiting on dated, cited, clear photos of proof that Jims car is 0846. Since the burden of proof from some posters were asking for it... I want them to provide it for there argument.

    No one seems to have addressed my points I made 2 pages ago.

    Still waiting.
     
  24. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #9524 Vincent Vangool, Dec 6, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
    No clue as to why Piper operates as he operates or decides as he decides? I don't know what he is aware of or not aware of? Or what he deemed valuable or not valuable. I don't know if 0846 survived or not, nor if it did if it ended up in JG's car or another or is just tucked away. For all I know Ferrari crushed it. But maybe they didn't and my guess is the clues are out there to figure it out.

    I agree. Scrapped means tossed in their yard not neccessarily thrown out as PSK was talking about.

    As far as whether they would rebuild it or scrap it? I guess it would matter how extensive the damage. Maybe it is a combo of both and a possible explanation why JG's chassis does not completely match the picture. Maybe they cut away the parts that were too badly damaged and replaced those areas with Piper era construction and upgrades such as using P4 master cylinders etc.

    Have you ever welded something simple? Say a BMX bike frame? Do you have any idea of how long just that simple arrangement takes to construct? Measuring, cutting, bending, welding, finishing etc.? If one were able to save large amounts of time by cutting away damaged area's and building atop the good it may be worth it?

    Also, who is to say the only damage to 0846's frame was the known accidents? There could have been other areas that were worn out or damaged by the time it was hypothetically built for Piper, including the suspension points. Damage does not only happen on the race track. It could happen during disassembly, wear and tear, in the scrapyard(hey throw that engine over there on top of that frame!), in shipping, in Pipers care etc. Virtually any part of this chassis could have been cut away and repaired or modified since the 1967 pictures had been taken.. If one is basing their conclusion on a chassis having to exactly resemble a picture from 40 years ago as their basis for their conclusion with no and, if's, or but's then IMO their ability to search out the truth using these conclusions is mere childs play.

    I am not at all saying this is 0846, but to write it off due to it does not exactly match a picture from 40 years ago after it was in the hands of a well known modifier of cars to keep them racing is laughable. 0846 could have been fabricated into a swing set and it would still hold the remains of 0846.

    For any amount of certainty to be had, All of the frames would need to be compared to navigate through how each was constructed and modified and to see where the similarities/differences lie between the ones manufactured by Ferrari vs. Piper. If 0003 was a mix of the two, well......
     
  25. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Piper said exactly what he sold in writing and there is nothing to ask or explain any more. That hard to understand? Chaos – and others - did quite obviously not understand the essential point. Nobody has to prove anything except those who claim, that not DP 0003 was offered, sold, imported and taxed but an 'original'. And he - and others - do not understand either, that Ferrari has confirmed in writing, that the car got scrapped, a number 0846 is no more and eventual remains were not foreseen to build another car. No bibliography? Ludvigsen not enough? Just laughable! The car is simply DP 0003 and no Ferrari. Anything else is just bubbling and this tread should be moved, if the moderators take the rules serious.
     

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