The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 376 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    which parts? what %? do experts think there is more than 0% from 0846 still in car?
     
  2. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Impossible to say what %, area, or definitive associated chassis number is most apprpriate. Using a nebulous phrase or term suggesting 'some' might be appropriate though it must be disclaimed it likely has a bit of everything which points to my reasoning for calling it 08xx.

    There is no clean break to the argument. It's the same reason judges hate, and usually don't, make rulings on church cases which are always riddled with half truths and old information or supposed agreements.
     
  3. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    there is a strong argument right now it is 0%, even if it is more than 0%, are we talking 1% or 3%?
     
  4. tilomagnet

    tilomagnet Formula Junior

    Sep 26, 2010
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    Why is this brought up again and again? The car is what DP sold it as: A replica made by him that incorporates some period correct Ferrari parts without relation to any actual specific car or S/N. Nobody knows where the various parts were installed before and we most likely never will.

    It is not "Ferrari 08xx" but DP#003. Thats why this thread is in the wrong section here as many have pointed out before.
     
  5. freestone

    freestone Formula Junior

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    Legally accepted?!?

    From all evidence presented, it's a well done replica. DP003

    Seems clear.
     
  6. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #9381 Ferraripilot, Nov 23, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2016
    The below are statements that cannot be made without objection:

    The chassis is 0846

    The chassis has mostly 0846



    The below is a statement that can be made minus objection due to Piper's comments:

    The chassis has Ferrari period correct original chassis incorporated, impossible to say where, but with some likelihood that 0846, and others, are included.


    This is not enough to call this car a replica as it likely has some 08xx components there, but not enough to specifically call it 0846. There is far too much ambiguity to say 100% either way.
     
  7. freestone

    freestone Formula Junior

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    You must have read something differently than I have.
    No where to my eye does this appear to be proven.
    And indeed contradicted by the maker Piper.
     
  8. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    As long as the above statement remains, an argument that some of 0846, and any other 08xx chassis could be included, and since Fchat does not have a 'mostly or partially replica section' nor definitions specifying what constitutes original, I cannot see this thread being placed in a replica section.
     
  9. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    umm, there is no proof chassis is 0846 without a doubt. Most on here now believe there isn't anything from the 0846 chassis in the car. beyond that what parts from 0846, I don't think Jim even claims parts besides part of the chassis.
     
  10. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    That is precisely why I stated claiming it undoubtedly is even in sections 0846 ambiguous. It may be but it also may not be. There are good arguments that portions may be as Piper never documented what he used where, but he did state some original parts were used. Heck, it may have zero 0846, but because Piper failed to document what went where and from what old chassis, it remains ambiguous. Combine this with Jim's 'evidentiary findings' and there may be some validity to the claim.
     
  11. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Who are these experts? lol

    Seriously tho, who or what experts would be accepted by those following the thread. Surely many if not most posters will be at least upset with whatever experts didn't agree with their viewpoint. FWIW there has already been exceptionally negative comments about Classiche because they might at some future point support Jims claims, I only hope that people keep an open mind and don't present nor take any information for or against as a personal attack.

    Whatever it is, at least its the only claimant to "0846" as its not uncommon to have multiple claimants, like with #0818 and many, many more cars.
     
  12. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Not sure how this statement can be made minus objection. Piper said that 003 was built on a replica chassis. He never said that there were any original Ferrari components in the chassis that he sold to JG.
    Nathan
     
  13. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    Where is this confirmed? My understanding is Piper stated some original chassis are in the mix. Or at least he could neither confirm nor deny
     
  14. tilomagnet

    tilomagnet Formula Junior

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    Please...this is going in circles and its all in this thread a hundred times. Please go back and read it before chiming in.

    The chassis is all new. There is no mystery there. The car has continuous history.....as DP003, thats what it is.
     
  15. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    The problem for the casual observer is that the sprinkling of facts is buried beneath the mountain of repetition in the 470 pages of the thread, the smoke screen of diversions and the "speaking on behalf of others" that has clearly dogged this drama from the start.

    It could all be condensed into two pages probably.

    If anyone was bored they could go through it all and summarise with links to specific posts, but good luck to anyone who wanted to take on that challenge! certainly not me :)
     
  16. piloti

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    #9391 piloti, Nov 23, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2016
    You should do your home-work before getting involved. This is from JG himself. p.12 of his PDF:
    “David had told me … that the chassis had been built by the "original chassis maker from original 1967 P4 chassis blueprints that were given to him by Enzo Ferrari along with permission to build 0900"”
    So David Piper, according to JG , never claimed that any of the chassis had any original pieces, because if Piper had said that then JG would have put it in his PDF. It was/is a totally replica chassis.
    Nathan
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    evidentiary findings? have you even read the latest evidence that seems to trump Jim's evidence? sorry if you haven't been keeping up last 6 months, but the fan boys train left the station and crashed already.
     
  18. Ferraripilot

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    Still half-truths with lots missing and lots of ambiguity gents. Won't get into it any further, but there will never be a clear cut answer.
     
  19. freestone

    freestone Formula Junior

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    I actually did read most of it recently. (Don't ask; I was stuck in bed)

    Anyone who still thinks it could be more than a recreation isn't objectively paying attention to the evidence.
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    +1

    And yes I thought there was a possibility of a connection to #0846 in the early days, but as Steve's posts of the historical photos prove, there is no connection.
    Pete
     
  21. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    The half truths are on Jim Gs side.

    The facts... you know the thing with conclusions drawn from photographic evidence are on the not 0846 side.

    Go back and read... I believe the last 20 pages. MuiraSV has done an excellent job combing over period photos and jims own photos to draw the conclusion that the car is not 0846.

    The concentration has been on the rear of the car for years. I asked the questions of "well what about the front?"

    It turns out... nothing from the front is similar and that is not a section that would have been modified by ferrari in period when it went from p3 to p4 configuration. It should have been largely unmolested.

    The sad truth is...
    the front of the car isn't 0846, (wrong structure and missing unique characters to the real (0846)

    the rear certainly isn't (wrong structure and motormounts with photos to support)

    The engine isn't (f1 engine)

    and the body isn't. (jim had it made)

    the 0846 stamp was added by Jim.

    Many parts/spares recreated or purchased from ferrari by Jim to assemble the car to its current condition today
     
  22. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Over time JG has argued that "the metal speaks for itself". He has also repeatedly claimed that the heart of any claim of provenance for the car is the chassis.

    So, using those as the basis of the analysis Muira SV has clearly proven that the chassis cannot be 0846. Ergo, by JG's own standards the serial number cannot be ascribed to other bits and pieces that are attached to the reproduction chassis might have been part of 0846 at some point in the history. The engine has been proven to not be even P4. The gearbox is not original. The body is not.

    Forghieri has updated his statement of findings. So the holy water that JG wants to claim is not there either.

    Other than an unrealistic prayer for 0846 where do you find ambiguity?
     
  23. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

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    Along similar lines, I watched The 24 Hour War on a long flight yesterday. Outside of the fact that it kept me entertained for around two hours, one thing stood out to me as extremely odd. I should probably don my flame suit here, but I'd be interested to see if anyone else had a similar reaction.

    In describing the Ford/Ferrari Le Mans battles, dozens of historically important cars are discussed at length. All of them are simply referred to as a Mark II or 250P in the narration and are never labeled using on-screen text if I recall correctly. At one point about two thirds of the way through, they mention the P3/4 very briefly and show a photo of it, very deliberately refer to it as chassis number 0846, and provide an on-screen label indicating the same. The car is never mentioned again.

    It almost seems like someone pulled strings to get this car inserted into the film and specifically called out and labeled as 0846, even though it doesn't play a role in the story and none of the other cars are given the same treatment.
     
  24. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
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    I wonder if Jim is reading this thread.
     
  25. Kitbash

    Kitbash Karting

    Dec 13, 2012
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    I doubt it...he's probably out driving his awesome car (and loving every second of it, too!!)
     

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