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slaughtered 308

Discussion in '308/328' started by ricmat, Sep 4, 2016.

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  1. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    im not sure why they have envy... they have cross plan ferrari motors too. 430 motor in maser guise is 90 rather than 180 (430 motor is built by maserati as i recall). they share the same block.

    32 v8 lancia motor based on a 308/328 is also a 90 crank. different applications i suppose. off idle many say these two 90 cranks motors sound better than their counterparts.

    my 2 308's didnt sound anything like the 2 urracos ive driven. the little bulls engine note were epic which are 90's also! almost as inspiring as 355 on tubi's which remains my favorite sound of all production v8's.

    for me the willingness to rev higher and advantages in exhaust phasing in a flatcrank is more important than smoothness in a sports car.
     
  2. hanknum

    hanknum Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,050
    Santa Barbara
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    Henry
    OK, I'll post my opinion...

    Nicely done. If this had a blown engine and the owner wanted a driver...why not. It appears to be a very clean conversion. Now a days, with prices on the 308 rising, probably not a good choice.

    Henry
     
  3. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
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    John McDermott
  4. greg288

    greg288 Karting

    May 28, 2007
    203
    To me, this engine swap thread is just another in a long succession of threads I have observed over the 9 or so years I have been a member here.....mostly hanging out in the 308 sub-section.

    It is similar in nature to the 288GTO re-body/replica/clone threads.

    Both pop up from time to time and the arguing and debating begin all over again like it is something new. You always have the two camps of people......those that approve and those that don't. No one in either camp is going to be persuaded to change their mind and, once everyone is done putting in their 2 cents, the thread eventually dies out until the next version pops up somewhere down the line.

    I think the only new wrinkle is the recent value increase of these cars that most didn't anticipate happening as the 308 was one of the first of the more "mass produced" models.
    Maybe people are getting nostalgic....maybe people are getting tired of the trend of bigger, heavier, more complicated, less driver-involved Ferraris......who knows, that could be a whole new debate on a new thread.

    Anyway, in the end, it is just a car and, when it is your car, do what you want with it as long as it's executed well. You only have to please yourself.

    As for me, I'm doing both an engine swap and a proper wheelbase 288 body.
    That's my 2 cents.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    To be fair to Ford the designers would have to have taken servicing costs into account. No Ford owner is going to accept what a BMW owner would re servicing costs.

    This is why American engines have to be simpler and why I'm not a great fan. I believe in servicing and therefore I want a more sophisticated design, not the "we will over come by unnecessary capacity" solution ... but I do remember a Falcon coupe race car with a Windsor (I think) v8 that sounded simply wonderful and was very fast!
    Pete
     
  6. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
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    The only things I don't like about it are the wheels, steering wheel, and the leather pattern on the seats. Change them back to original and it's a winner in my book. Wouldn't mine dropping that engine/trans package in my 355.
     
  7. ricmat

    ricmat Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2016
    345
    London, UK
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    Ricardo


    Really? Would you really change your 355 sound for that?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
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    The purchase happened in the 1990s. Don't go by today, when Ford and Chevy are building better engines.

    I'm thinking the muscle car era, of the '60s and '70s.
    (Remember the brand that Richard Petty ("The King" ;)) used to run?)
    Even as late as the '90 LeBaron, the only good part of a Chrysler product was the engine.
    (When I was stuck with rental ragtops in '90, I always wanted to put the LeBaron mill in the 'Stang. ;))

    In the '80s, after buying Alfa, Fiat tried to sell them through Chrysler dealers.

    Fiat bought Chrysler for their dealer network. But Daimler bought Chrysler when they had good engines, and Chevy didn't.

    Today, yes, the 21st century is another story.
     
  9. tinterow

    tinterow Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2014
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    Chaya Tinterow
    Reliving old topics is cool...new opinions are always welcome...that's what makes the hobby fun...IMHO :)
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    No, Daimler bought Chrysler because of their mini-van market penetration ...
    And yes I'm sure Chrysler engines are good, but Mercedes could teach them many things or two/three!
    Pete
     
  11. targanero

    targanero Formula 3

    May 31, 2005
    1,661
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    Simon
    Alfa and 'dead-reliable' simply don't work together in the same sentence. 9k rpm? 308 engines many years ahead of 'production' Chevy v8s? Sounds like some delicious Italian kool-aid!
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    #62 PSk, Sep 16, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
    Have you ever owned one? I've owned 3 and never been let down. Still own 2 of them. Rust issues with 70's ones and not the best trim quality but not unreliable.
    Yes it was a full race prepared engine. It still used Alfa crank and rods but forged by Cosworth pistons. And yes 9000 rpm when needed but 8500 rpm all race day long. The Alfa Sud engine is a great and very strong engine. Can take 8000 rpm when dead standard. A better engine than the Alfa Nord engine.
    When the 308 came out, yes it was many years ahead. All alloy when the Chev V8 was all iron. Overhead cams when Chev was still and is still pushrod.

    Sure the Chev v8 is now probably the best ever pushrod engine but it is nothing too special.
    Pete
     
  13. targanero

    targanero Formula 3

    May 31, 2005
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    I'm not praising the Chevy v8. I'm just pointing out that 2 and 3L alfa and Ferrari regular-production I4 and v8 mills from that era weren't as advanced as some claim. Exotic? Maybe. On the cutting edge? Not really.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #64 PSk, Sep 21, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
    Yes one of the problems with Alfa Romeo, anyway, is that they ran their engines for too long, so yes by the late 1970's the then 2 litre I4 engine was very long in the tooth as it originally came out in 1954.

    But in 1954 and say up to 1970 it was cutting edge. Twin overhead cam all alloy engine, carburettor per cylinder for many models. But they should have done a redesign with shorter stroke and 4 valve per cylinders mid 1970's. The twin plug engine, the final version of the classic I4, was a considerable improvement but too little too late I guess (although can easily be made into a very powerful and torquey engine).

    As for the Alfa v6, it was original designed in 1971 and had a clever design to use a single over head camshaft to drive the hemispheric valve arrangement and still permit a central spark plug. But yes the 4 valve per cylinder did not come out to 1997, way too late.

    The Ferrari v8 came out in 1973 ... interestingly the Alfa Montreal came out in 1970 and also had an all alloy twin overhead cam v8 engine.

    The Chev small block came out in 1954. While a great engine, I'd put the Alfa and Ferrari engines ahead of the Chev, even in say 1975.


    Trying to think now of an engine that was cutting edge in 1975 ... and better than the Alfa or Ferrari engines.

    The Ford Cosworth BDA came out in 1969!, but not really a high volume production engine.
    Pete
     
  15. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
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    A small correction - the V6 24v was launched with the Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 Super in 1993 rated at 210HP. As for the 2.5 V6 24v - that was launched with the 156 V6 in 1997. The Busso engine was in use for 28 years - right up to the 2007 Alfa Romeo 166 3.2.

    I've been told that these engines have a flat plane crank - giving them the famous sound - maybe others have more info ?
     
  16. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    howdy pete

    lotus / jensen healy 907 engine. all alloy, 4v, twin cam,itb, short stroke 95/69mm bore/stroke... all of the goodies you have requested in mass production back in 72.

    id say it was more advanced than the alfa or 308 in 75. BUT the 2.0 907 was also nicknamed the "torqueless wonder" i have a derivative of this motor, a stroke 2.2 version call the 912 which is still hyper oversquared. its still not a torque monster so be careful for what you ask for, most people arent as hardcore as you and i :)

    as a note chevy vega cosworth had a dohc 16v in production in 75 So they have been there done that.

    imo the best of the old school road motors is the nissan skyline gtr way back in 69. 2.0 inline six, 24v, dohc, itb. race proven, street proven and a sound track to die for. it was later available in 70 on the domestic Z with the "432" option... aka 4 valves, 3 carbs,2 cams

    all the best



    flat plane crank on a 60 degree six? can they do that?
     
  17. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
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    Don't forget all these designs were hardly new ideas in the seventies. Peugeot had the formula of double overhead cam, four valves per cylinder, central spark plug, hemispherical combustion chambers, and dry sump lubrication on their L76 Grand Prix car way back in .......

    .....1912!!!
     
  18. Arvid

    Arvid Formula Junior
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    I think you're right. That would probably be one vibrating engine...
     
  19. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    The Busso is a great engine in how it performs and sounds. I suppose its character comes from the short stroke and its valve timing. It is not especially powerful and certainly no marvel of efficiency. But it does feel very good driving it, it has great character. As Jeremy said in the (funny) Alfa 166 review, "it fizzes, it crackles - it sounds.... like an engine! Not like a monk."
     
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Amen. Love my 156v6.

    I find it surprisingly economic and very flexible. I also believe that they had a little trouble getting the same performance figures with the Holden v6 that replaced the Busso.


    hyenahf,

    The Jensen Healey Lotus engine was considered weak when it first came out but yes on paper is the business. I wonder if we would consider it a torqueless wonder nowadays?

    The Nissan GTR of the 70's would be a pretty rare thing, but even so the 240z engine was a very good one too, but only 2 valve. Very strong.

    I think in the late 60's and 70's 4 valve did not necessarily equate to the best engine. The twinspark Alfa Nord engine proves this, although this was not productionised until the 80's (I think), but was used by the GTAm race car in the early 70's. The main improvement was the narrow included valve angle meaning a better combustion chamber and flatter/lighter pistons.

    The humble Ford Escort 1600 pushrod crossflow engine, although all cast iron was a good one too. Strong as and very tune-able ... but I guess you could say the same for the small block Chev v8 :)


    Arvid,
    My mistake re Busso 24v production date. Didn't look hard enough :)
    Pete
     
  21. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603

    yes, 4v motor were new and underdeveloped for road use at the time. when they came out the whole industry was in spiraling downward focusing on emissions, fuel economy and safety instead of race-bred motors or vehicles. the dichotomy, is in hindsight, the 4v head would have help in both economy and smog.

    alfa had 3 different 16v heads for the nord block already in the 70's. the late 1300 gtams 4v autodelta motors spun to 10k about 180 out of 1300. the later privateer angellini 4v heads were better since the combustion cambers were based of a cosworth dfv,dba etc. toyata 4A-GE did the same with almost a direct copy.

    i know a fellow running a angellini 16v in his race car here in the states. in fact he says has the molds from them in case he needs to cast fresh ones. i told him i would be the first inline if he ever decides to do so. these are special since they fit the 2.0 blocks

    before the settling on the late twinspark in early 80's, alfa had studied also studied a 3v, 4v and a reed-valve motor to control reversion. they settle with the twinspark + variable cam timing. i suspect the bean counters won out...

    warm regards
     
  22. tinterow

    tinterow Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2014
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    Chaya Tinterow
    The question is, what is a dramatically altered 308 really worth? Is it unsaleable? It has been relisted once again at $60K...one bid buys it! Ferrari 308 308 Gtsi | eBay
     
  23. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
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    Kim
    Like I mentioned in a previous thread. I would be out of the running at $23,000 but that's just me.
     
  24. 308gtsqv

    308gtsqv Formula Junior

    Feb 12, 2008
    610
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    Mike
    All prior bids on the car some what were in the 50's have been complete bull.

    I wouldn't personally even buy it but for Under 20, I would consider it. I would try to source a used QV motor and just try and save the car.

    That being said, something like this at a Mecum or even a Barrett Jackson might do OKAY money. By that I mean mid 30's?
     
  25. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 World Champ

    Nov 25, 2010
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    As I said in the previous thread if it had a LS and not a carbed iron block it might sell, and yes those previous bids had to have been friends.
     

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