I Have To Say It | Page 5 | FerrariChat

I Have To Say It

Discussion in 'F1' started by Spasso, Nov 18, 2015.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447


    Yes, it matters when a country doesn't seem to produce engineers of high caliber and has to import its brain power. It's not a healthy situation.

    That could be a reflection of the lower standards in university, of an inadequate curriculum or the decline of engineering culture in a country, and it's something that should worry the people in power in Italy.

    I do not see anything racist in mentioning that. It's not a slur on Italy either, it's a constatation.
     
  2. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447


    +1
     
  3. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Sure...but it is that way because of decades of poor management. The UK car industry didn't decide, "hey we don't want to do this anymore, let's do something else." They failed - really badly, and now other countries own most of their most historic brands.

    So it seems kind of arbitrary to criticize Ferrari, who makes more per car than any car company ever, and is still firmly based in Italy, while simultaneously bragging about the British engineers who have no British car companies left to work for...
     
  4. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
    17,667
    Bocahuahua, Florxico
    Full Name:
    Tone Def
    I agree. F1 is boring, but knowing the technology behind the sport makes it interesting.
     
  5. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    Ferrari hiring policy. They ARE a global organization, remember. Not just located in Italy.

    Get Hired: Ferrari | EngineeringBecause
     
  6. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    #106 william, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015

    The UK car industry didn't decide, "hey we don't want to do this anymore, let's do something else.", but the investors did. In the 50s and 60s, the British car industry was in need of restructuration, new products, new methods,etc... But the traditional investors (banks, insurance companies, building society, trust funds, pension funds) were more interested in a quick return than patiently wait for the dividends to come; they prefered to invest abroad in mining, energy, trade, shipping, etc... .

    Starved of capital, the British car industry shrank, through various amalgamations (British Moror Corporation, then British Motor Holding, then British Leyland Motors), until it was nationalised in hope to save it. At one point, the Chairman of British Leyland was a civil servant who didn't even have a driving license !!! Not a good way to run a business.

    BMW and Ford came to the rescue, but didn't do better. Ford finaly gave up on Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin, whilst BMW abandoned Rover for £1 !!! The only thriving car industry in UK were the 3 Japanese plants (Honda, Nissan and Toyota).

    The Qataris bought Aston and Indian Tata did the same with Jaguar-Land Rover. Look at MINI, a sub-company of BMW. BMW also owns Rolls-Royce, and VW Bentley. MG is coming back under Chinese ownership. It doesn't matter who owns these companies; they are still British, manufacture in Britain, providing jobs here and helping our economy. Foreign ownership hasn't diluted out heritage, it has reinforced it.

    So where does that leave the British car industry now? It's doing very well, and most of the brands taken over by foreigners have lost none of the Britishness they were famous for. British engineering was never in doubt. Audi, Mercedes, Hyundai, Nissan and some others have used consultant design offices in UK. Jaguar-Land Rover is recruiting and will double the size of its plant. British made cars are very much in demand here and abroad, and we also have a niche car industry equal to none.
     
  7. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,367
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    As I thought, this was all a nationalistic dig at the Italians. You dog them for hiring foreign workers but say the British car industry is doing very well while not even owned by the British anymore. Talk about a double standard...Ferrari is Italian owned and run by Italians, you can't say that about the British manufacturers.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    I commented that Ferrari success in F1 came when the technical team was mostly Anglo-Saxon (with a French principal).
    It was in fact the whole design team poached from Benetton!!
    Is that not true?

    Since Ferrari replaced that team with Italian engineers, it doesn't do so well.
    Is that also not true?
     
  9. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    Correlation does not imply causation.
     
  10. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,367
    Richmond
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Their last round of success did, but prior to that it didn't. Now, they have an Italian team principal and a mix of other technical resources (including plenty of Italians). You act like Ferrari has had one successful run in f1 which isn't the case. You seem forget that guy named Mauro Forghieri who guided them to 8 constructor titles.
     
  11. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    So they failed - because they allowed themselves to become obsolete to the point where it no longer made sense to invest in British car companies. Meanwhile the Japanese, Germans, Italians, Americans, etc all continued on for a variety of different reasons. Again, you make it sound like this was something that just happened to them by chance - they allowed it to happen through their own actions, or inactions.

    ...and why do you suppose those companies failed? BMW found out Rover was such a turd that there was no way to make money. That wasn't the "investors" faults or BMW's - it was the result of many years of poor decision making.

    But it isn't your heritage anymore. BMW built the rolls plant from scratch and they designed the mini and rolls models from scratch. They hired ALL new employees for Rolls...IIRC VW took the employees for Bentley, but I may be foggy on that. Only the design language and a subset of the employees remain British. They are German cars; they are now part of BMW's story. There are great British craftsman involved, but they are paid by a German company.

    Isn't Aston putting Mercedes AMG engines in their road cars now? Aston engines use to be built by hand in the UK. How is that continuing your heritage? Same with Bentley - totally designed and owned by VW...just design language. They don't even talk much about the racing heritage anymore; it's just an ultra-luxury car now. Most Americans who own Bentleys have no idea they ever raced.

    So everything was awesome, best of everything, yet you don't own any of it anymore? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

    No one debates that they are talented people in the UK. But there are in Italy as well at Ferrari. Not to mention that without foreign-owned car companies, all these talented British people wouldn't even have a place to work at home.

    So again, I just find it hypocritical. You guys can't run car companies, you were horrible at it and it ended in total loss of ownership. That's just reality.
     
  12. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    I am well aware of that! I have been following F1 since 1961, that's why I commented about the technical staff at the Scuderia.
    Before, it was more an "in-house" design office, but things have changed since. I know about Chiti, Bizzarini, Forghieri or Rocchi back in the 50s and 60s. But times have changed.
     
  13. Whisky

    Whisky Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 27, 2006
    25,293
    Upper Great Plains
    Full Name:
    The original Fernando
    You are not saying anything we have not been saying for YEARS...
     
  14. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    The collapse of the motoring industry in Britain in the 70s has been deeply analysed, and the main reason has been lack of investment. You may not agree with that.
    There was no lack of engineering talent, but a lack of cash to make new tooling, launch new models, bring up new engines and modernise the plants.
    The British financial institutions prefered to invest in other ventures than the car industry. That is a fact.
     
  15. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447
    Of course our heritage survives!!!

    The new MINI and Rolls maybe be under German ownership, but they are designed and built in UK by mostly British staff, and are British to the core. Why do you think BMW manufacture them in UK, and not in Germany. And what would happen if the Rolls, or the Bentley were now called German cars? Do you think they would sell so well? Is a Jaguar an Indian car? I don't think so.

    It doesn't matter who owns the company, it's the culture around it that matters, the know-how, the talent, the craftmanship, and those are British to the core. That's what VW, BMW or Tata bought: brands with British heritage. Move them abroad, and all the mystic disappears!

    I think the Brits are open-minded enough to understand these things, even if you don't. We are not very chauvinistic when it comes to cars: jobs are more important. The heritage, the culture doesn't disappear with a change of ownership. Mostly not if the new buyer understands what history, what culture he is buying into and wants to preserve his investment.
     
  16. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    So to summarize:

    -Ferrari only won in Formula 1 because of Brits, and other non-Italians
    -The fall of the British car industry had nothing to do with the quality of the companies involved; people just lost interest in investing
    -Despite BMW building the new Mini and Rolls from scratch and owning the company, the cars are purely British.
    -The British car industry is alive and well despite none of the companies being owned by the Brits.

    ...I don't think there is much more to discuss. You should check your facts on BMW in particular. Others have already pointed out why the statement about Ferrari is incorrect.

    Here are a few highlights:

    -The Director of Mini is named Jochen
    -The current Mini was designed by Adrian van Hooydonk (Germany) and Frank Stephenson (Norway)
    -The current Rolls factory was designed and built by BMW. The first car they produced had a BMW V12.
     
  17. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    The lack of logic and blatant hypocrisy baffles, doesn't it?
     
  18. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    In answer

    - Recently, yes.
    - Essentially yes.
    - Mostly. The cars are designed to look Brirish, are built in Britain to maintain British tradition.
    - Yes. Absolutely.

    - He is a German BMW executive.
    - They don't make it in Germany or Norway, do they?
    - I know, I visited it during construction. It's an underground plant at Goodwood. The engines are still produced in Germany to a special design.

    I don't see how all this makes the British car industry look unsuccessful at present. Check the figures: production goes up, jobs go up and sales go up too; this isn't Detroit you know !!!
    In fact, the British car industry is considered a jewel in their portfolio by Volkswagen, BMW, Tata, Nissan, Honda, BMW who have invested in it. The Chinese cannot get enough of British cars to buy!!
    The Sunderland plant has been declared the most efficient of Nissan plants worldwide, including Japan! Productivity has reached an all time high. Jaguar-Land Rover have recently introduced a third shift and are recruiting. The Jaguar plant will double in size before long. Etc ... etc ...

    Do you want me to talk about the US car industry perhaps, or should we stay silent there?
    Not only the Japanese and the Koreans have heavily penetrated the US market and built plants there, but the "big 3s" have only survived with Federal help.
    Ford had to lose Aston Martin, Land Rover, Jaguar and Volvo, and GM lost SAAB. Chrysler had to seel Lamborghini and go in partnership with FIAT to survive.
    GM and FORD have lost their top spots in the world ranking.

    If you talk about bad management in UK car industry, you shouldn't forget that the 3 US giants also lost money and pulled away or collapsed in UK.
    - Ford UK closed its car plants and only kept some van production. Bad management ?
    - Vauxhall, the British arm of GM almost stopped production in UK, now mostly sells re-badged Opel. Bad management?
    - What about Chrysler UK that owned the Rootes Group (Hillman, Singer, Humber, Sunbeam) ? They went bankrupt. Bad management?

    By the way, since you doubt the value of the British car industry, since it's not owned by Brits, compare our sport cars production with the US. Which sport cars are produced in the US? Now look at the racing cars production; how many race cars are built in the US?
     
  19. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Not to mention the revisionist history.

    I knew William was anti-American after reading his response to the VW diesel scandal. Cliff's notes: he blamed the US government and their agenda against foreign companies, not VW. Of course, every single government is now all over VW - including Germany.

    The anti-Italian/Ferrari view and bizarre interpretation of the British car industry is a bit shocking though honestly.
     
  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    Jaguar Land Rover to double engine plant size
    New facility in Wolverhampton set to double in size due to strong demand, creating hundreds of new jobs

    Jaguar Land Rover to double engine plant size | Autocar
     
  21. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Like I said - there is nothing really more to discuss. I think a lot of your opinions on this topic are pure fantasy based on how you would like to feel about Great Britain.

    Looks like xenophobia, more than anything. I don't know why you think I would be game to defend the US car industry or how that is even relevant to the discussion at hand? Why would you make that assumption? I think GM should have been allowed to fail as just one tiny example. The US car industry has its own demons, but they are still in business.

    Again, I just think you shouldn't throw stones from a glass house. But according to you, the British are the most successful car makers and engineers in the world - past and present.

    You also just contradicted your previous dig on Ferrari by stating that it doesn't matter who designed Mini because they are built in the UK. In addition, a number of them are assembled in Austria FYI - you know the massive ones that have nothing in common with the original Mini save the branding.
     
  22. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2006
    25,447

    No, I would never say that the British car industry is the best, because I don't believe it is.
    But it is not bad.

    The German and the Japanese are well ahead there; there is no question about it. Britain allied with the best: BMW, VW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan, Toyota...

    I know that the MINI Countryman is assembled in Austira. But it is still a British MINI brand at heart.

    If a Mercedes ML is assembled in the US, does that make it an American car? I think not; it's German engineering, German DNA and German flair.
     
  23. Jana

    Jana F1 Veteran

    Mar 4, 2015
    9,872
    Interesting. Well, I suppose I'll just refrain from ever engaging again. After all, I am American, and as a woman, my opinion probably ranks even lower. Although, my family came from Germany, so I suppose based on heritage, I'm winning the car race since William approves of Mercedes and BMW. :)

    A side note - everyone in the US, considers the Mini a BMW and they all get upset when a regular BMW dealership doesn't want to deal with them. The BMW dealership guys hate the Minis.
     
  24. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,648
    Land of Slugs & Moss
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    I know, but like the title of the thread, "I just had to say it". I guess that after Brazil, more than ever, I felt like I REALLY wasted my time on this, (more than usual).

    So take me out an shoot me. Put me out of my misery and you can continue to enjoy this thread and all of the insight that it offers.;)
     
  25. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,648
    Land of Slugs & Moss
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    The technology behind a Tesla is just as interesting (and the car is probably quicker in "Ludicrous Mode")

    I tried to keep my interest going with the point you just made but without testing and mid-season changes allowed, the last half of the schedule is not much more than a procession, albeit a fast one. (unless the weather is bad, then the fun begins)
     

Share This Page