The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

...and he also said:

603R gearboxes have the numbers (603) standing out in relief on all the castings which make up the box ; they are moulded.
The actual number of each box, as well as an R (or S for 512S/M) is then punched into the magnesium casting.

Below is a pic of P3/412P 0848's 603R gearbox. Here you can see 603 numbering.

P4 0856 has a tipo 237 engine No. 1 and 603R gearbox number 9.

To be exact, P3s had a tipo 216B block/engine and 412Ps had a tipo 241 block/engine.
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I am sorry but I do not clearly know that Vincent is knowledgeable. He clearly does not understand that the burden of proof lay with Jim to have proved his chassis was 0846. Jim's evidence has been thoroughly disproven.

I fully understood Nerofer's point but his point is flawed and I already answered it here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144255133-post7245.html

Using the word "much" not "all" was in reference to the TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS because there was other supposed evidence which Jim presented regarding the Sparling weld and replaced chassis tube which is also unproven/refuted/disproved.

Forghieri's written evidence was independently verified by one of Jim's biggest fans, PSk who wrote to Forghieri questioning the authenticity of his email to me. Forghieri replied to PSk confirming his email to me.

I am 100% certain of the accuracy of the translation.

Oh, you said you could go on. Please do....

 

I used Ferrari's words. Umberto Masoni said to Jim in a letter in 2004:

"If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped."

Forghieri said the chassis of 0846 was discarded and he also said in the same email to Jim (unauthenticated) that it was sent to the scrap yard. The words discarded and scrapped can mean the same thing. You don't know that nobody saw it sliced up and thrown in a furnace. Even if nobody saw it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. To date the provable whereabouts of the chassis 0846 ended in the scrap yard in 1967. Fact. Also, in the unlikely event it wasn't destroyed, it does not automatically mean that Jim's chassis is 0846, which is what Jim has wrongly concluded. Unfortunately Jim totally jumped the gun (below in italics) after getting the letter from Classiche saying the chassis was definitively scrapped.

"This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and Exactly what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts."

The letter from Masoni does not confirm the chassis of 0846 was not melted into oblivion. There is absolutely no way whatsoever that the scrapping of chassis 0846 means that the chassis Jim has is 0846. There is no connection.

Who exactly saw a P4 type chassis with Tom Meade? I'm not ignoring anything at all.

 

LOL ! Is this thread still going ?

 

I have a question for you and its the same one I asked months ago, what is this to you? What is the issue here as to what this car is, why this car and not any other car? What is your specific interest in this car which has resulted in what appears to me and no doubt others as an unhealthy obsession?

Seemingly this all started with 0858 all those years ago.

Please do me and others the courtesy of not indulging in double speak. You keep carrying on here, on and on, to what end?

As with many things in life it all boils down partly to the burden of evidence but perhaps more importantly, credibility

 

Who cares about the burden of proof lays with Jim? This is not a court of law. How about we act like enthusiasts and find out what this chassis actually is with out the guilty or not witch hunt?

That is the problem with this thread and why it keeps going in circles, it is not about being a Ferrari enthusiast and discovering what sits in front of us as an enthusiast would. It is about winning the guilty or not verdict, winning the witch hunt, which I find ridiculous.

A true enthusiast would be thrilled if the chassis of 0846 survived, it is an invaluable piece of the Ferrari History, but... all the wishing and hoping doesn't make that so. I would think that we, as enthusiasts, would try to discover as many facts as possible for or against, confirming this to be or not to be 0846. The burden of proof cop out just shows how B.S. this "investigation" is. We should be here to prove what it is, not here for a court case of who is right or wrong. Laughable.

This thread is about Miura getting back on a vendetta to appease his Idols and we all know it. He is hurt that 0858 didn't meet with many members approval. He is not serious about gaining more knowledge on what sits in front of us, he is only interested in dis-crediting it and dragging it through the mud.

If you read back in the thread you will realize Miura knew basically nothing of P4's back when the 0858 thread was going. He was asking which books to read to learn more, but once scorned he dug in deep, and is still digging. Good for him and his quest for knowledge, too bad the motive for that quest is as ugly as it gets.

I have no clue how you call yourself a Ferrari enthusiast if your whole mission is to disprove that this is 0846, a real enthusiast would want to find out what the chassis actually is one way or the other.

If he actually was interested in the cars history he would help to discover the cars history. Not just be here to dis-credit it at any cost.

We don't need a prosecutor, we need investigators, people that are looking for facts versus who's guilty or not guilty. We don't need someone who assumes they know the facts and are only looking to prove guilty or not guilty.

If this were an enthusiast thread we would be working to find out what sits in front of us, either way. Burden of proof is a ridiculous cop out, as enthusiast's we need to investigate. Not prosecute.

 

I am not convinced that the burden of proof lies anywhere. Jim can certainly choose to argue the provenance of his car on here or not and the current culture of this thread would surely not entice him to even try. If Jim does decide to prove he owns the car and it is based on the frame of #0846 whom does he need to prove it with, Ferrari SPA have said what they believe and that leaves what authority, the only one I can see would be Marcel. Given the current tone, if Marcel came out and said he disagreed with Steve or had proof in the contrary Steve and others would all just start hating on Marcel. This again is no enticement for Marcel to comment. So we just have a stalemate with Steve prosecuting and no-one acting for the defense.

And no hating on my friend Readplays & Vincent, they know a lot about these cars. Disagree for sure but keep it civil.

 

I think the point to be made is IMO no one really knows much about this car, specifically the chassis.

There is no expert on this as there are huge areas that are completely unknown even by the experts experts. You cannot be an expert on what you don't know and thus can't explain, at that point you are a speculator with an opinion. Opinion is not fact.

No one knows for certain how this frame came to be whether built by Ferrari or by Piper so in my opinion there are no real experts. Only theories.

If someone was an expert on this actual chassis they would be able to definitively explain how this chassis came to be. People don't even have a clue or a decent theory of how a P3 chassis came to be built during the Piper years. It is just Burden of proof, slam, slam , slam with no actual concern for the history of this chassis or enthusiasts enthusiasm for the construction of the chassis. Whether this is a Ferrari or a Piper it is a very interesting part of the P4 history and I feel a true enthusiast would want to know far more about the timeline of the chassis than just slamming it to win an argument.

No one can. There are no experts. There may be "experts" on other Ferrari's that know everything about THOSE cars but there is not one here. This is a different can of beans. Those experts are just as clueless as we are, until they have some concrete factual evidence of why they know more than we do.

For me much of figuring out the mystery lies in how this car was built and used during the Piper years. Where is any proof of that past theories? How did the damage to the chassis happen to a car that has no record of damage during the Piper years come to be? There is none and no one is concerned enough to look. I don't have this knowledge. I am not an expert on that. And as far as I can tell... no one is.

No one really knows, therefore... there are no experts.

 

Please can somebody tell Vincent who Mauro Forghieri is.

 

Please can someone explain to MiuraSVU that he lead Mario Forghieri and that his "concrete proof" was later debunked by... Mauro Forghieri.

 

Again you are absolutely wrong. Mauro Forghieri confirmed his email to me to PSk. Do you really think that someone of Forghieri's stature could be lead? Forghieri and his Racing Department, not "another Ferrari department", designed P3 0846 and its conversion to P3/4 which is fact. In his "polite" email to Jim he confirmed he didn't carry out the mods to his chassis thus providing further proof it is not 0846. The "concrete proof" had another load dropped on top. Vincent you really should do some research yourself.

 

The same could be said about people like you, Vincent vangool and macca .... What's it to you to defend this car and keep this up? What's in it for you and others then?

If all of you would stop posting so would mira and the thread would drop off. He has posted new information, like it or not. All of you keep fueling this fire for no reason at all - if you think it's real, then great, if he thinks it's not, then great - all that matters is Jim is enjoying his car.

Welcome back !

 

I feel if real this is a holy grail car and should be respected/revealed as such if authentic. If it is not 0846 and is indeed 0003 I feel it is an interesting enough part of Ferrari/P4 history that an enthusiast would want to know more about it.

There is nothing more in it for me than I feel the history of the great Ferrari's should be preserved accurately.

 

+1.

 

I couldn't agree more. +1

 

Those answers will never be reached on fchat like this, as much as I agree with you 100%

 

What part of what is written below do you not understand? Maybe you should do some reading and try to comprehend what is being said. Foghieri clearly states here that he cannot be certain the modification to 0846 took place under his watch. Your "proof" is debunked... try again sport.

Please stop distorting the facts by what you feel is concrete research, it's not.

 

Except in your case there is a vendetta to be carried out. You wont admit it but it is clear as day to most that are reading this thread.

You care not of the history. You are here to serve your idols. And we all pretty much know it.

 

I will agree to disagree. If enthusiasts were looking to investigate versus people with a bone to pick who are looking to prosecute, then much more could be revealed as to this chassis history.

It is very telling that MiuraSVU is only interested in trashing the car. If he were constructively interested in the actual history of this chassis, whichever it may be, then we could actually have an informative thread that told the true story. Like it or not the Piper years are a huge part of this story, forget burden of proof, if one truly wants to know the story they look everywhere, not just the places that are convenient to fuel their narrative.

He's not concerned about the history. His only purpose here is to burn this thing to the ground to impress his idols. That is blatantly obvious.

 

"I cannot of course rule out that thos modifications have been carried out elsewhere,perhaps even by another Ferrari departement."

What you have to understand, and you would know if you had done any research at all, is that it was Forghieri and his Racing Department that designed/oversaw the modifications on the real 0846 to P3/4. This is an accepted fact. Above he confirms the modifications to Jim's chassis were not done by him. I am distorting nothing.

 

Agreed. This should be an effort by enthusiasts to constructively discover whether this chassis is 0846 0r 0003. It should not be carried out as the witch hunt that it has become. This should not be carried out as a prosecution but rather as an investigation for the truth of the chassis versus a go nowhere argument.

Either way, if it's 0846 or 0003 it is an interesting tale and I feel a true enthusiast would want to know as much about the chassis whether it is indeed 0846 or 0003.

If it is 0003 then I feel there is still much to learn about how it came to be and that information is as important. It is an interesting tale either way and the knowledge of how it came to be is an important part of the P4 legend.

If Piper did indeed construct a P3 chassis from scratch that is beneficial knowledge to the community, one that I feel most enthusiast should be excited to learn.

To me, just flaming it as not being 0846 does nothing to reveal the true history of the chassis that sits in front of us.

And as enthusiasts I feel that is what of interest here, whether the title of the thread states it or not.

 

Ferrari Letter from Umberto Masoni made it clear the 0846 was scrapped and written off, not melted.

Alberto Pedretti and Sal Baronne earned incomes, with their own reputations to uphold. In their cases, as actual Ferrari experts.

The odds that either, let alone both would allow 'Napolis to misrepresent 0846 are infinitesimally small.

Conversely, the odds that Ferrari would tell 'Napolis to cease and desist are infinitesimally tall.

Piero Ferrari was, shall we say . . . "written off" - And pulled from the scrap bin.


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+1 and +1

I guess we're not enthusiasts then....

 

Just warming up