You can watch the video on YouTube. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIEghNFzV_Q Gardner v. Ford- Report Hearing of March 2, 2015
That's funny. 3000 posts, but only 7 people interested? And my computer doesn't have adequate volume to even hear what was said. Oh well. I only tune in to this thread when things are REALLY slow. The only voice of reason seems to be Bill H, and I can't figure out why he bothers. Maybe things are slow at his office now, too? I haven't chimed in, as a lawyer, primarily because I have an instinctive distrust of those who want to try their cases in a public forum such as F-Chat. And who has the time to plow through all this and try to make sense of it, anyway? Now why did I bother to post? I dunno.
To Ferrarismoke and others with very small post counts, there is nothing wrong with that and your opinion is as valid as anyone else' BUT it perhaps smells a little fishy and this thread has featured at least 20 fake posters who turned out to be either previously banned individuals or their nearest and dearest. MOD's, you may want to check them out?
The forum is a wonderful tool to make statements that with just the slightest spin the picture becomes totally distorted. OJ has been doing that for 5 years now. 1) Kleve had 5 pieces of real estate that he owned with cars on them, all were condemned by the authorities. The automobiles were removed and destroyed. Then in 2005 Kristy Kleve lawson had to donate all of the properties to settle the many leins the City placed on that real estate. Look up Cincinnati Enquirer article dated 1/20/2005 written by Kevin Aldridge. (I will post an excerpt) 2) The photo that I displayed was identified as the race and reemelin road property. This was a very relevant Kleve property that was a part of a 5 property cleanup by the City. Post#2898 3) Ocean Joe, you can post the clean up order since you maintain that you are an Ohio resident. Just walk down to the courthouse and pick up the Court Order. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- over," Lawson said. "Sometimes it's just better to lay some things to rest. My dad didn't want me to live the rest of my life fighting his battles." Lawson, the executor of Kleve's estate, agreed to give the property and four others to the township in exchange for trustees dismissing several court judgments against her father's estate. Three of the properties were littered with old cars, pianos, magazines, boats and the fuselage of a B-29 airplane. The township had declared the properties public nuisances and placed liens against them. The deal ended a 14-year court battle between Kleve and Green Township and brought a "messy" chapter in the township's history to a close. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Image Unavailable, Please Login
My point is and always was the same. You can not file a Police report for a car without a title, MSO or a Government issued registration as in Pink Slip in California. I am not trying to win over the readers. I am showing what actually happened and I am producing information that was a part of the history of #0384. And yes, in your mind it would be stolen when your car was removed but No, it is not stolen until listed stolen. If you dont have title then it will not get listed. I one could list a car stolen without a state issued title that would allow every crook in America to say they lost cars to collect the insurance. Furthermore, one of the first questions insurance companies will ask, when you apply for insurance, is do you have a title in your name.
Ferrari Smoke banned as alias for dogday/EarlyFerrari/wamajama/etc. All three posts by this user deleted.
nice fiction, theft reports are filed daily by the thousands, none of which have anything more than a description or image... in some cases their values exceed what is claimed here... the term personal property is ALL inclusive... including cars
Does anyone have any comment as to whether Kleve received payment for this vehicle? There have been posts that he received a few thousand and on a second occasion, a few hundred thousand. Is this true, or not? If true, then the issue is was this adequate? Was the amount adequate at what point in time? Was it adequate given the condition of the remains at the time it was moved from Ohio to Georgia? There has been no discussion that I have seen regarding the re-creation / restoration costs. This has had to have run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Who paid this?
There is a reason Automobiles ( motorized vehicles) and Real Estate are titled. We are discussing a 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus here, so why are you talking about theft reports for personal items? There is also a very real reason the Police departments have a, "AUTO THEFT DIVISION"! Example: call the Police auto theft division, then tell them you had a rusted-out Ferrari frame taken and you dont have a title, you dont have a vin number, you dont possess any proof of ownership, and you want to make a Police report. Get back to me with their reply. Perhaps you will get a free jacket out of the deal. "A straight jacket".
Your convoluted logic is nothing but an attempt to justify a fortuitous result in court. A simple question: Was there a verdict of Not Guilty/Acquittal or was it a hung jury that was then not retried?
So Mr. Galt (Are you Mr. Galt?) are you a new poster, a lurker, someone already banned or something else entirely. I have an open mind......
In case you didn't catch it, the username is an obvious reference to John Galt of Atlas Shrugged, which opens with the line, "Who is John Galt?"
September 1999, Kleve/ Daniels and Lancksweert/ Swaters enter into a Settlement Agreement transferring all ownership rights to the car claimed by Kleve to Lancksweert / Swaters, including good and clear title to the car. Swaters paid 625.000$. Daniels,after receiving the money, did execute all required tasks and documents through the escrow process. The Case of ?0384AM? | Jacques Swaters
The key question is not whether Mr. Swaters wrote a cheque for US$625k but whether Mr. Kleve ever agree to sell the car for $625k. Yes he retained Mr. Daniels to either get the car back or attain fair settlement for the car. But, like anyone selling anything via an agent, he didn't say Mr Daniels you decide what I should get and give me that. Nobody does that, would you? I also question whether Mr. Daniels ever passed on the $625k.......
Kleve got paid for his rusted junk, but i guess he rather would have the rusted junk back instead to put it back in his garden. What he did with his money, what Daniels did with his share, that's for them to decide. A few years after receiving the money, Kleve dies and leaves an inheritance to his heirs. Before passing away, he might have donated the money to a shelter for abandonned horses in Ohio. Doesn't matter. Now all this fuzz is about an heir who thinks she deserves more than what she is left with and a lawyer who's horny for money. I call that greed. My humble advice for Florence Swaters, donate the car to the Ferrari Galleria,or another Ferrari museum where it can be admired by all Ferrari enthusiasts as a special tribute to Jacques Swaters. I would love to see the car driven by Jackie Ickx, or Kimi Raikonen, or some other Ferrari racing legend at Goodwood, Le Mans Classic, Mille Miglia, Spa Francorchamps,......... So just pretend the auction never took place, money back to wexner or whoever who had the highest bid. And let all this other nonsense stop.
If a payment was made in the amount of $625,000. to Kleve through his agent Daniels, does that vitiate all of the arguments about theft? If Kleve did not want to sell at that time or at that price, isn't that an issue between Kleve and his agent, Daniels? Are there any arguments that Daniels did not have explicit or apparent authority to act on Kleve's behalf? Finally, who paid for the recreation / restoration and how much did it cost?
Bertus To Donate Property, One Must First Own It Swaters, when he realized Daniels had no authority to convey in 1999, hired an attorney who contacted Daniels, who then put Swaters on ignore. In true knightly fashion, Swaters then attacked the daughters of Karl Kleve, misrepresenting to the Ohio court that he bought the Ohio Parts in 1999 when his own man Lancksweert admits under oath the Ohio Parts were NEVER part of the alleged 1999 settlement. [The comment about "knightly fashion" is sarcasm in case you miss it.] Swaters' own forensic document expert proved his 1999 documents were ALTERED after Kleve had signed, thus there is no 1999 agreement between Swaters and Kleve. Plus Swaters never paid Kleve the $3,000,000 that was on the document before it was altered. Why do you think Swaters claimed he had 0394AM until after Sept of 1999? Joe *
Cobblers ! Read the your own post and show me the reference that supports this much repeated distortion of the facts http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143521378-post2485.html
All good questions. Two more Does someone pay $625K to buy a document they know to be a worthless fraud ? Why hasn't Lawson or OJ ever asked Daniels what he did with the money ?
In 1991, when Swaters realized Karl Kleeve had a title to the Ferrari, (which absolved all USA legal rights), it was worth it to buy that title. Little did Swaters know that the 1993 Ohio title was a scheme that Karl Kleeve pulled off to deliberatly fraud the Ohio Court. And in 2001, he would again apply for a 'fake' duplicate title as a scheme for another angle to sell the Ferrari again. Kristine is carring on that Kleve family tradition, it's obvious. (Attachment posted again) By 2009, Kristie Lawson was on the Ferrari marketplace promoting the sale of the Ferrari parts with a fake Ohio title, and actually offered the parts to many people on this thread who could afford to buy them. When Swaters got wind of that offering in 2009, he rightfully sued Lawson for fraud as he had already paid Karl Kleeve, and had the proof. Was Mark Daniels the Kleeve agent? Yes, he was! And Kleeve made no attempt to go after Daniels where the recorded payments to Kleeve rested with him. No further mention of Daniels whatsoever, and no counter claim.......mmmmm?? Now again....Kristie Lawson is being sued for fraud, in London and in Ohio. Today, she has relied on her "agent" to collect for her, in the Kleeve family tradition - it's another Mark Daniels ! Let's do some forensics on that Ohio title, which is 100% a fraud on Les Wexner. After all, it's Les's car now. Paid for and in his possession. Not a stolen car! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ad something new these are are all very old questions/opinions. Swatters camp had plenty of chances to answer some. So has Joe/KKL. Good arguments on both sides. Plenty of chances for both sides. Wonder why neither side pushed any of this for judgement in Ohio? This is old stuff guys. We covered much of this 6 years ago in this thread. Sorry no game changers for either side. Otherwise someone would have used it with success in Ohio court.
Yeah, let's. Gardner argued his Motion to Reform (Change) that Ohio title about three times in case A1306451. He did not succeed. (Zero. Zip. Nada.) Apparently, your "forensics" fail to include the other relevant portions (pp229-23) of that hearing that explained the unusual nature of Gardner's lien rights - i.e. they were CONTINGENT. Ohio titles do not have a spot to list contingent lienholders. In fact, I explained that Gardner's lien rights were "double-contingent." Don't get me wrong - Gardner had lien rights. The lien rights flowed from the Ferrari 375 Financing Agreement that Gardner had with me, and, the lien rights were CONTINGENT. Lien rights do not equate to a lien - one must read the particulars! Gardner's lien has NEVER ripened - meaning it did not become a full-fledged lien until contingencies were met, the first being that he had to finance the theft recovery effort through, trial, appeal, and physical recovery. Gardner failed to do that, so his lien did not come into being. This FACT was fully explained earlier in that same hearing at pp 229-230, and again at other spots in that same hearing. So, I think that whomever is feeding you is feeding you you incomplete information -- they are using you like a dull tool. It has been almost 18 months of Gardner v Ford, and the dispute is finally going where it should have been all along, and where I tried to get it to go since day one - to arbitration. A pertinent question to ask is why would someone deliberately choose the improper forum? That is not what winners do. Regardless, it is FACT that multiple challenges to the Ohio title have been made and lost. The current Ohio title is battle-tested and still standing. As to the issue for arbitration, it is irrefutable FACT that Gardner failed to finance starting in approximately Sept of 2011, so I think his "lien" will be declared a nullity. Additionally, I later learned that some of the payments Gardner did make were made with stolen money. All this will be part of the arbitration which I think Gardner will lose. Below are a couple of excerpts from the 2013.11.13 hearing to help you understand that "contingent" thingy. Joe * Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
