Stumbled across this 250GTO restoration | Page 6 | FerrariChat

Stumbled across this 250GTO restoration

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Darren C, Nov 2, 2013.

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  1. richardowen

    richardowen Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2004
    841
    Montreal, Canada
    If you've ever seen cars like 3505GT up close you might notice the difference and why this car is worth what it is. 3505GT carries little/no filler, as they probably did back in the day, and the result is a very imperfect surface.
     
  2. mechaniker

    mechaniker Formula Junior
    Owner

    May 30, 2004
    565
    Germany

    That is, what i tryed to say... Maybe a bit different, but in general.
     
  3. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
    206
    UK
    Full Name:
    Kevin O'Rourke
    #128 Telaio, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Richard, delighted to see that you have picked up on an important issue which seems to eluded most Fchatters ............... and I'll put this in capitals so the message get's across;

    WE REMOVED THE OLD BODY FILLER by skilful workmanship as per the attached photo, whilst the original panel gaps were excellent so were not an issue, you will see that the body was re-fitted asymmetrically as original with the aid of our Digital Scanner, I dedicate the attached photo to you Paul as your passionate comments have quadrupled the traffic on our website Sports Car Restoration, Vintage and Classic Car Restoration, Surrey, London and have generated an unseasonal amount of business, thank you, thank you xxxxxxxx Rosso Kev.
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  4. Darren C

    Darren C Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2011
    308
    Chichester, UK
    So Rosso Kev, do I get commission as the originator of the thread. ;)

    I'll take payment in the form of any old used 330GT 2+2 parts you have going spare!
     
  5. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
    206
    UK
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    Oh so cheeky of you Darren C ;~} can't promise 330 parts but E mail me your address and I'll ensure your on my personal Xmas gift list, kindest regards, Rosso Kev. ps, this is a one off so all you dreamers out there forget it, you weren't quick witted enough !!!!
     
  6. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    #131 PAUL BABER, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Paul your passionate comments have generated an unseasonal amount of business, thank you, thank you xxxxxxxx Rosso Kev.[/QUOTE]

    London Transport ? ........xxx
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  7. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
    206
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    #132 Telaio, Nov 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    London Transport ? ........xxx[/QUOTE]

    Ha ha ;~} Paul, your getting a little off the thread subject matter here but, yes, isn't it always the same ........... you wait forever and then they all turn up together ;~}

    Cheers Rosso Kev. ps, good to see your diversifying, If I thought that bus your offering for sale came with a tool kit I'd make a bid on it, what's it's chassis number / service history ??

    pps, Thought the cognoscenti might appreciate the interesting photo below .......... For more amazing photos check out our web site Sports Car Restoration, Vintage and Classic Car Restoration, Surrey, London. or follow the F40 LM restoration thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/288gto-f40-f50-enzo-laferrari/396915-f40-lm-restoration-79.html
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  8. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
    12,143
    The Netherlands
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    Onno
    I've always found that photo does not do justice to Rosso Kev. It's way too "Rosso Corsa". Bit surprised that you didn't ask the photographer to change it at the time.

    ATB,


    Onno
     
  9. Darren C

    Darren C Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2011
    308
    Chichester, UK
    Pm sent to Rosso "Santa" Kev. :)
     
  10. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 20, 2004
    6,629
    #135 Ney, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
    Since the is plenty of discussion about GTO's, hand hammering vs. wheel, originality, web site traffic and spare parts, this might be a good spot to post these items that I found available.....

    No affiliation, just thought it interesting.

    New Arrivals

    New Arrivals

    For the do it yourself kind of guy....A few more parts and you will have yourself quite a car or two...
     
  11. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
    206
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    #136 Telaio, Dec 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hey Ney, very interesting you got me thinking; consider this ...........

    1, I believe that it is universally accepted that all race cars are minimally built to do a specific job and that they were or are soon rendered uncompetitive either due to age, the lack of development or maybe a change in the regulations.

    2, Due to their construction methods and general wear and tear, corrosion and crash damage is an inherent and ever present threat.

    3, Due to corrosion or crash damage sooner or later new metal or composite will need to be added in order to maintain it's value or road worthiness.

    4, Any new material added will of course be considered by many to be the " Bastard offspring" ........... Given time and of course a loving family this " Bastard offspring" will become accepted into the family and indeed there are plenty of legal judgments which give this new material respectability; just Google " Old number 1 the Bentley team car ".

    5, OK, now that we have accepted the Bastard into our cosy little family what is more important, Blood line or good looks ??

    6, The correct answer is of course Blood line, as blood line can be traced. Looks are subjective to taste.

    7, All this means is that the any new material added is assimilated into the whole part by association , good looks count for nowt.

    8, OK, so we welcomed the unwelcome addition into the family and of course human nature being what it is there will all ways be an ill informed or wicked relation who chooses to laugh behind the youngsters back ............, maybe they are looking after their inheritance ( value of their own investments ) or most likely they are with out skills, are misguided by others and just love a bun fight choosing to ignore photographic evidence which was most generously shared ............ maybe they think that the possession of knowledge which is of absolutely no use to them gives them a power base to drive opinion and forge illogical standards and maybe influence new comers ??????

    9, To conclude I guess we should decide whether we'd prefer a good looking Bastard in our family or an ugly scruffy runt ???????/ I guess most of us would go for the good lookers' every time hey ........ after all a Bastard is a Bastard right ??

    10, Then let's use an English wheel to create our good looking Bastard, a very British way of working whereby a Craftsman takes enormous pride in his superior creation ;~} obviously it goes without saying any perverse types will be drawn to the good old tree stump and shoe heel method.

    11, The truth is that a loving family will embrace the " New Comer " regardless of looks or blood line and that how it should be, here endeth the lesson, xxxxxx Rosso Kev.

    Ps, thought you might like the attached photo of son Rob who was born in wedlock, check out his amazing website Welcome. Please visit our shop, above left. - O'Rourke CoachTrimmers ;~}
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  12. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    3,043
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    John Vardanian
    Just curious as to whether an English wheel has been spotted in the historical photographs of any of the Italian coachbuilders' shops? Thank you.

    john
     
  13. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    The revelation that one of the men behind this restoration suggests that those drawn to doing similar restorations with accuracy and respect to traditional methods are 'peverse types' and those both doing and supporting the use of period correct methods to conduct that work are chasing 'illogical standards' despite dealing with cars worth many, many millions, is very revealing.

    As 'perverse' and 'illogical' as those that think working with an attention to both history and accuracy may be, perhaps those working to those exceptional standards look at this restoration as a missed opportunity conducted by either an owner or shop looking for quick and convenient.

    I thank you for your posts and especially respect your shop's ability with modern Ferrari's (as evidenced in other threads) but it certainly doesn't mean I respect what has been done here nor the excuses for it.
     
  14. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    Yes John, check the excellent book " Inside Ferrari, I seem to remember that it was festooned with old Lambrusco bottles and a bit dusty, cheers Rosso Kev.
     
  15. John Vardanian

    John Vardanian F1 Rookie

    Jul 1, 2004
    3,043
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    Thanks Kevin, will do.

    john
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,612
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    Timothy Russell
    Another great post Kev................

    Some of the people saying preservation as accurate as possible is the one and only path need to look at some pre war stuff and then perhaps reassess how they feel. If you get to contemplating the really old survivors it is near impossible that they would have survived without restorations over the years and they CANNOT be judged by modern standards, but does that make them any less desirable, hell no. Further it is easily arguable that a larger proportion of buyers put a value on the abilitiy to take a car that is worn out and be able to go through the process of having it restored, picking the colours, doing the research and watching it go through a process near re-birth. And then you have the value judgement of being able to show, display and where appropriate race your now extremely valuable car.

    As I recall from the Octane article the process of restoring the vehicle was neither quick nor I imagine cheap........... Gine82 you should get your hands on some of the articles by Miles Collier in Sports car Market magazine regarding the various values, monetary and otherwise of restorations/ preservations et al.
     
  17. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    That would be a pointless endeavour considering that I'm all too aware that restorations can be conducted either cheaply or using vast resources. I need no further confirmation of that.

    I previously posted that no GTO restoration should be done cheaply. It would be a ridiculous thing to do IMO. Feel free to direct me to any comment of mine where I stated this specific restoration was done cheaply, as your post would suggest.
     
  18. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
    206
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    #143 Telaio, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Dear Ginge82, the whole point of my earlier posting was not to cast aspersions on fellow craftsman but to point out that there are legal precedence's which accept that any new metal added in the name of repairs is foreign but by association will become accepted into the whole, now given that said additions are accepted as initially foreign, why would it matter whether said part was formed by an English wheel or a hammer ............. does it not also come to pass that the manner in which said replacement part was fashioned will also be accepted?

    I'm sure that if you thoughtfully consider the facts, you will agree that surely it is more honest to use a different method of repair so that future historians can decide to what extent something is original ?

    Are you aware that the Ferrari Classiche department / it's sub contractors can be seen to be "MIG" welding their chassis repairs and "TIG" welding their alloy panel repairs rather than "Ark" weld / "Oxy Acetylene" gas weld as original; one can only conclude that they after much soul searching and deliberation agree with the above and so I question why such narrow guide lines are imposed on us independent restorers ?

    It's interesting to note the comparative meagre hits' this most significant restoration thread achieved when we carried out this work all those years ago and it's amazing how things have changed, the LM F40 we are currently working on has attracted over a quarter of a million visitors ............

    But the most important thing is that this forum is used to inform correctly and I am saddened to see such misinformation being spread, for instance one poster confidently demonstrates that he has a complete ignorance of panel work / metallurgy when he suggests that we use leading on an alloy body ........... I see Posters' study the photos we have freely provided so as to avoid controversy only to see such disparate conclusions' that beggar belief; further more, they feel the need to spread their ill-conceived and unsupported dogma ..........

    I have no wish to strangle discussion but it is important to all that the information shared is valid; so here's my suggestion, before posting an opinion on a subject how about posting your qualifications and how about an explanation as to how you arrived at your conclusion, surely it is preferable to seek knowledge rather than to pass on falsehoods.

    Your thoughts ???? cheers Rosso Kev. ;~}
    Ps, for the minority who wish to spread the story that we are only good at working on NEW models I have attached a photo of an old car we recently worked on, one of five Mercedes Gullwings we have restored; check out the complex restoration on our website.
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  19. ginge82

    ginge82 Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2012
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    Art Corvelay
    #144 ginge82, Dec 9, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
    As I have previously stated a thoroughly/accurately documented restoration should leave the next generation of enthusiasts/owners with sufficient information to analyse what is original metal/parts and what has been added at a later date. That approach leaves the restorer with the ability to use traditional methods to rework or add new metal where and if needed, whilst still making clear to all what is old/new metal.

    Using the excuse of vague legalities to piece together a hammer and wheel body holds little weight and the fact you state 'why would it matter' sort of says it all. Restoring with a healthy respect to how these wonderful things were made matters to some and I certainly include myself in that group.

    In terms of Classiche, you will find a mix bag of opinions on the boards regarding their methods and I'm skeptical about their attention to detail myself considering some of the experiences posters have been kind enough to share with us, their department regarding a fake as a genuine Ferrari just one of the most memorable.

    I will leave it to the poster that suggesting to use leading on alloy to clarify/defend their remarks, but I do genuinely wish to thank you for sharing your work with us once again.
     
  20. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    John Gould
    You might be asking a lot here Kev, but it is interesting to see how many of the most opinionated posters choose to disclose absolutely zilch about themselves in their profiles.

    A fellow poster recently said that there may be good reasons for some wishing to with-hold personal information and I an see that. However, many of the significant and knowledgeable posters seem to have no problems with full disclosure!
     
  21. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    Well I for one think Kevins last post will silence many of the detractors, but unfortunately the anonymity of the internet always allows for some of the "virtual" self appointed "experts" to argue that even when its proven 100% black is black, they will still stick with their opinion that it's a darker shade of white.
     
  22. Telaio

    Telaio Karting

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Kevin O'Rourke
    Hi Fellow Posters' well there seems to have been a outbreak of common sense, let's hope it spreads like one of those internet viruses, long may it last ;~} hope springs eternal; many thanks for your support. Cheers Rosso Kev.
     
  23. gtospoons

    gtospoons Karting

    Jun 16, 2011
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    Chris Withers
    +1000
     
  24. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    Steve Hill
    Just read the posts in the thread and the original restoration thread. It never ceases to amaze me what people get all twisted up in their knickers about. While it appears to be about "restoring" or "repairing" a body as they were originally done, what would Ferrari Classiche think and/or do, I'll use an mechanical example. While looking at a new Lampredi V12 engine being made and assembled for Ferrari Classiche I noticed the heads were set up for coil valve springs. I asked about that because that obviously wasn't original. The immediate response was the coil valve springs work much better and are more reliable. There was no concern, by Ferrari or Engine Builder, about the fact that coil valve springs were not used on the engine originally. So, if they don't mind using better techniques, parts, etc. on the engines (arguably a lot more important than a body in Ferrari legend), why should one worry about using a better technique to repair or restore a body? I'm not a mechanic and I'm not a skilled craftsman. I do however walk the talk about Ferraris, like all cars, are meant to be driven. I could care less if someone used an English wheel, sand bags, hammers, pick your weapon of choice to fix the car. As long as it works and looks good.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    One should never use Ferrari in a debate about restoration, they could not give a stuff. Their view is they made the car originally and can therefore do what they like now ... Even if they put a 550 engine in a Daytona (for example) it would be original as far as they are concerned because Ferrari did it.
    Pete
     

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