The Ring & The Big 3

Excellent post, a little extra boost in the McLaren should easily lead to 800HP.

 

Very interesting analysis. I learned a lot.

On the KERS thing, I expect that the technology will get better, but not a lot because at the end of the day, the batteries have only a few percent of the energy density of gasoline. Life and reliability should improve. But in Europe the pressures to appear to be responsible on emissions is huge, and the "hybrid" moniker will help keep the wolves at bay. There was a common saying among my old business associates, "In Europe, watch what they do, not what they say."

 

good post

some of that already being discussed here
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/288gto-f40-f50-enzo-laferrari/388428-ferrari-f70-laferrari-vs-mclaren-p1-vs-porsche-918-a.html

 

I knew some of that seemed familiar.



Generally I agree and am also stunned by both 918's and P1 Ring time for different reasons.

I look forward to driving all of them and to seeing if La Ferrari is really 0-300 in 15s and under 7 at The Ring.

Looks wise I like 918 best but that is simply personal preference.

I likely will buy the 960 non hybrid version for a daily when my 8C reaches 80K miles in few years.

I agree that all of these would be a lot more interesting non hybrid.

 

The way LaF implemented kers is not a gimmick, it offers instant torque and nothing else.
It must be exhilarating pushing the throttle at any gears and immediately feel the vehicle launch itself, like a video game, every time. No electric only mode, no batteries completely discharging themselves, no push to pass buttons or hot lap modes, just a better torque curve and better performances.

 

Where are these 2 years coming from? The warranty? Common electric cars' batteries will last 5-10 years easily and these are supposed to be better.

Also with every replacement, new cheaper and longer lasting batteries will be developed and installed.

I don't think companies like Ferrari will leave you to your own devices in regards to their tech showcase car. They're probably already loosing quite a lot of money on each of them just to make their point and would not let the whole exercise down for 500 batteries.

Hell you can buy a whole model s for 100 k's.

 

If I was Ferrari I would offer the first replacement for free or at a nominal fee. They definitely didn't make the batteries but just bought them from third parties. I would envision that such third parties who specialise in car's batteries, would offer their own warranty, longer than a mere two years and more in line with the 5-10 years of other automotive products.

 

Excellent post (OP)! My perspective ...

First, no one cares how long they can drive their supercar in "electric only" mode. I honestly think that both Porsche and McLaren missed the goal, missed their target audience, here. However, there's something to be said for a "KERS" supercar, if properly executed. Would you like to recover some energy during braking, and use it to help low-end torque, and corner-exit speed ... if it only increased vehicle weight by 10 pounds? YES. Howabout 20 pounds? YES. 100 pounds? MAYBE. 500 pounds? Almost certainly NOT. (No question, the complexity and reliability of these systems remains a concern as well)

Hybrid and KERS are not the same, but neither are they fundamentally different. The Porsche & McLaren definitely lean more towards hybrid, whereas Ferrari is more KERS.

An interesting thought/prediction ... look for so-called "supercapacitors" to find a home in the next generation of KERS cars On the downside, they don't store as much energy as batteries (for the same weight), but you don't need to store as much for KERS (compared to a hybrid). On the upside, they can last much MUCH longer than batteries, and charge/recharge much MUCH quicker than batteries. Finally, one of the potential downsides of a supercap in a hybrid car ... namely, slow energy "leakage" or self-discharge ... won't matter hardly at all in a KERS car

 

Well, it´s not so easy, you need the electric power to fill the lack of power at low revs. They said they got so much HP because thanks to KERS they could tune the petrol engine just for high revs.

P.S: PR is a powerful thing. Funny how now suddenly everybody thinks that the Porsche is the holy grail and the McLaren is a bluff. First, let´s wait till some official numbers for the McLaren are published. And second, let´s see what they can do in a shorter and smoother track (in other words, in the remaining 99.9% of tracks in the world). I suspect that the picture will look a lot different then.

 

So you're happy to forefit your £40,000 non-returnable deposit? That's what I was asked for...

I suspect, if you're paying MRSP and don't have a non returnable deposit, you will by way of threatning to cancel, get a discount anyhow...

 

Super Caps have major safety issues especially in a crash. They are also very expensive.

Pure KERS is cool and works as you've said but it works much better on the track than on the road where there is much less braking.

In racing where you can build a car that's light enough to race at required minimum with 200LB of KERS it's worth it but on the road with minimal braking the cost, complexity and weight don't yet make sense.

How many road cars do you see at night who's brakes look like this?

One more thing. In real racing at The Ring we were able to recapture 50HP for 50s. This and other differences made a huge (15s) difference YOY but even 918 with a lot more batteries can't run a full NS lap without losing power. We made 50 for 50 lap after lap for 24. Racing the Ring uses a LOT of braking. I don't see any of these Hypercars being able to recharge themselves to full power in hot lap settings because they all produce a lot more than 50HP and that was the limit we found could be produced lap after lap. They will all be one lap wonders that will need a recharge lap in between.
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nice one Jim!

 

Thanks!

Note front brakes making wasted heat and rear brakes KERS turning Kinetic Energy into stored electrical power for boost.

 

OP a few things if you will .
I have been around the 918 since the concept days , I know the engineers and designers of this car .

Lieb is much faster than walter now , walter is over 60 and retired from competition .
Lieb is a current , fast racer . I would not really expect rohrl to drive as fast.
The car misses several apexes , the tyres were well past their best ( especially towards the end you can see him wait wait wait ) , It was far from a perfect run and the time was NOT released immediately . They waited for the frankfurt motor show to announce this has all been planned very carefully .

Lieb has gone of the record to say the car can go faster yet , the rear wing was not operational as well as a few other little things . The main thing to me is that ALL 3 drivers ( even Rohrl) got under 7 mins a testament to the ability of what is a luxurious , SPYDER not a track focused car .

They will go back if Mclaren manage to get under it and it has clocked a 6.48 on non e rated tyres .

For me the FERRARI guys will not set a time , not because they cant BECAUSE THEY DONT NEED TO . They have what will be the best car for risiduals and collectors , it is gorgeous and fast , they do not lower themselves to this kind of thing . And nor should they .

My problem is Mclaren will lose either way .

wether they go under 7 or not they need to smash the opposition , something they just cannot do .

I was with the P1 a couple of days ago on t he road not the track . I spoke ( again) to technicians who built the car and the drivers drivers that drove it ( as well as experiencing the car first hand I am prospective buyer ).
im sorry but anyway you cut it it is a boosted 12c . i tried to deny it but it is . it sounds the same( apart from turbo noises being different ) , feels the same , drives very similar .
the electric motor on the P1 is an after thought, it was mounted to one side and interfaced with the main drivetrain via a geared flywheel or something similar, the simplest way to say it it's a gigantic starter motor. The entire system is primitive compared to the competition .
Under 7mins was a number plucked out of thin air by ron . after 3 attempts they cannot get below 704 . They only came down " a couple " of seconds the last 2 times . What changes are being made ? The cars are due to be delivered next week , if they ever do get below 7 what will the car used have in common with with customer cars ? They would have gone below in 3 attempts if they could have .

Ron said "fastest car on track and best drivers car ever" , they cant even beat a luxury cabrio ? Again P1 should have destroyed everything , ironically that is a FANTASTIC TIME (7.04) it just looks bad AFTER you remember Rons quotes .

Silly mistake anyway , I dont buy cars like this because of a ring time and I dont know a single person that does .

 

So does gasoline and yet, humanity has that one figured out "reasonably" well A far as cost, that will reduce as we figure out & employ large-scale manufacturing.

Glowing brakes aren't the issue, as you're suggesting. A vehicle with a certain weight, and certain speed, has a given kinetic energy (0.5*mass*velocity^2) ... that's the kinetic energy available for "recovery" during braking. When you need to lose all that energy very quickly ... in time ... the brakes will glow, because the heat transfer rate is high. If you have a couple more seconds ... in time ... to release that kinetic energy as heat, the brakes won't glow ... and yet the total ENERGY lost as heat is identical. In short: energy is joules, brakes don't glow from joules, they glow from joules per second. So ... glowing brakes (from quick braking, on track) versus non-glowing brakes (from slower braking, on street) will have IDENTICAL energy transfer/recovery, if the weight (mass) and speeds (initial, and final) are the same.

Now, having explained that point, I do agree that pure KERS just may not be a big advantage on the street (one reason being, that speeds ... and therefore total available kinetic energy ... simply aren't as high on the street). But we have to remember that Ferrari doesn't recover energy from braking alone

We'll soon see, after some real-world testing of LaFerrari

I absolutely agree that LaFerrari may not make full use of KERS, lap after lap, at a track like the 'ring. BUT ... we don't yet know how the software control systems work in these cars. Once depleted, will the energy storage be available in a more limited, "continual" fashion ... allowing limited use of KERS for a longer period of time?

In other words, to use your example, if 50 hp per lap resulted in full depletion, lap-after-lap, is there enough smarts in the control system to simply allow 40 hp per lap? And might this be under "user control", so that you can still use KERS-boost at a few selected corners on the track, even though it's not available at all corners on the track, lap after lap?

Time will tell ...

 

Super Caps are a LOT more dangerous to FR's than Gasoline. When FR's come upon a fire they can see it. Shorted Super caps are lethal and not visable.

Our KERS system already does what you suggest. It can give you boost anytime you want it, show you how much you've used and have left, allow you to charge when you want to (Under Yellow) or give you 12 4s boosts armed by GPS braking points on the next 100% TP to come out of the turn when you need it until the Petrol motor produces torque automatically.

 

Great Post.

 

Indeed ... just as many of us suspected, from early information available on the P1.

 

I am going to disagree with a lot of you on here by saying that Porsche was the most clever in building a car that can run on electric power only for a decent distance. Metropolitan cities will soon ONLY allow such vehicles in their city centers [London being first I think] and this will make the 918 the most environmentally friendly of the bunch. Trust me I am not a tree hugging greenie by any means but this WILL be important 5 years from now.

 

I agree. I see the electric only modes, and the hybrid power train MPG ratings as important details in the sense that these cars will be used in urban environments, at slower speeds, for the most part. It matters that the 918 gets very good MPG ratings, because it means fast cars can be good daily drivers, and "environmentally friendly". Although battery disposal is still not as efficient as it should be.

 

Thank you

I think the Mclaren engineers have done an amazing job with the resources and money they had at their disposal . A wonderful job .

I cant help but think what they could have done with more money and without having to base so much on and around the 12c .

To call the P1 the successor to the Mclaren F1 hurts both cars in my opinion . I love history , I love cars , we should revel in the pasts glory not cheapen it , never cheapen it .

 

Do keep in mind just how complex these systems are. As I type we're hooked up to our Engineers in Italy downloading KERS data and servicing KERS system computers.
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