David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Completely, IMO...
A toatally subjective and largely immaterial, as ALL P cars were individually built, and none were the same as the car next in sequence(none)-either sitting on the floor next to it or numerically speaking...
With the earlier the P cars, the more this tended to be obvious...I know, I care for several.

However, these cars, are largely the same in this regard-what is significant is: Jims reference to the peculiarity of the glass/widscreen...

Years ago, I had a similar discovery of this when chatting with Dave Goldsmith(most famously known as the engineer who shoe-horned a type 245 sohc engine into a 308, and got it onto the Road and Track cover with the car as a comparison to the upcoming 288GTO!) about the pile of 412/P/4 parts he had accquired-accumulated-in an attempt to make a modern, DIY'er, "supercar" from surplus P/4 parts with a modern FI (TR)street driveline.

Amongst his stash of goodies was: an Honest to God NOS P/4 windscreen...
he detailed the peculiarities of the actual physical configuration of this piece-I remember THIS quite clearly...these sorts of physical constraint limits are a key issue on a rebuild/restoration/bastardization(take one's pick)of this type, scale, and magnitude...

Jim mentions a detail which perhaps 25-50 guys on the planet are aware of...Jim can tell you the variation of the clams in his possession, and the individual differences would surprise the uninitiated....


FWIW-60-65% of ALL P cars DON"T have the original frame, and almost 80% don't have the original clams on them...they were works, prototype, factory, racing cars...
and why would they?
and why is it that is a discussion normally associated with street, production, cars, is applied to these sorts of racing projects?

ANY P car found in uncrashed, original condition, with original body....which probably exists out there.... somewhere.... is so due to having NEVER seen combat in anger, or, had a very short-and limited-works effort backing it....



This car, WAS a P4, this is an undeniable FACT.
It was modified to an unknown, and undisclosed degree, decades ago.
It was an old, uncompetitive, sports car made into some thing else-a can-am car- so that there could be something to compete with...
Its success isn't at issue(or LACK there of), what IS odd to me is that people can't get over the clear pedigree...
the ONLY reason someone is trying it to resurrect an earlier iteration is based-IMO-solely in perceived economic gain-no more, no less...noithing wrong with that, as an owner...
In this regard, the "market" will speak, and do so LOUDLY-IMO.

None the less, the car IS what IT IS, perhaps, it IS what it WAS as well, it WON"T BE what it WAS, when it IS done...however....it WILL be a RECONSTRUCTED-albeit how accurately done is up to opinion-P$...uhh P4...imo, AND FWIW....

 

True.

Best

 

I like to call it P4/$

 

If you are recreating 0858 in her previous condition as a P4 wouldn't you want to do so as accurately as possible?

As you suggest these P cars had subtle difference when they came from the factory they had no need to worry for inaccuracy. Those doing multi-million dollar restorations should be worried about accuracy.

There is an image from 1967 at Lemans that is labelled 0858. Those bodyholes also seem wider than they do currently.

Again, Ferrari didn't have to worry about accuracy that could be deemed immaterial, those doing restorations of these P cars many years later should.

1967 Photo of Ferrari 330 P4 S/N 0858 at the 24 Hours of Le Mans with Ludovico Scarfiotti and Mike Parkes

 

Correct.

It is important to remember that this particular era of car was very fast, carried a lot of fuel low and between the wheelbase and in close proximity to hot header pipes in an era before fuel bladders. The fuel tanks were sheet aluminum covered in layers of fiberglass and had large diameter filler caps and cross over tubes. It did not take much of a bump, crash, or even heavy braking if the fuel filler wasn't properly latched to spill a lot of fuel. This often resulted in a pretty big fire.

P cars that have suffered serious fire damage at one time or another include 0812, 0814, 0818, 0824, 0828, 0830, 0832, 0838, 0846, 0872 and countless LM's too. The P3, P3/4, 412P and P4 generally fared better with respect to fire, but were also crashed heavily, re-bodied or repaired. 0846 was flipped once and hit a curb another time, 0848 suffered a heavy crash with significant front end damage. All of these cars have been repaired with varying degrees of authenticity. This is part of their history and evolution.

It is important how those repairs are carried out and efforts should be made to use traditional methods that are correct for the period of the car. Piper was more racer than restorer and often did what was expedient for racing purposes and it is here that there was often a conflict between his methods and historical correctness. At least for this project he used aluminum rather than fiber shells! One day, this too will be part of the history of 0858.

A good look at the fuel tanks and fire risk I reference has been seen previously on this site and I repost some of those examples below.
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Guys,

So if a privately entered P4 or whatever suffered heavy damage, who would repair in time for the next race, in a couple of weeks.

Surely, they wouldn`t ship the car back to Italy?

Wouldn`t it have been done privately, by the quickest method possible?

I don`t know, hence the question, but, once altered / repaired by others, it would appear it cannot be called original?

Regards

Jong

 

That's a tricky question.

I guess it all depends on the definition of completely original. There are some that will say once you've changed the oil it is no longer truly original.

I think it gets into the whole real or replica argument for that part of the repaired car.

I think it is well known that most Vintage Ferrari's have some areas that have been re-done outside Ferrari and some wish it could all stay factory but it seems to be that outside repairs done correctly seem to melt into being a part of the cars history and are accepted.

I think a good point brought up about Piper is that he repaired them to race, Not to be original. I respect that at the time. I would of done the same. Maybe he is the most knowledgeable guy on how to keep them racing, who knows? but those are his methods to keep them racing and what he knows of the car.

On the other hand the methods he knows may be completely foreign to how it was actually done by Ferrari.

It's an interesting debate if a repair done in period to keep the car racing with non Ferrari ways that has survived is now a part of the cars history and should be preserved.

 

The thread should have ended here.

Touché

 

Hard to believe that this thread is almost up to 100 pages. To quote my pal Chuck Queener, "Who cares?" They're gonna do what they're gonna do.

 

The beauty is that with all of the informed, uninformed, educated, and uneducated speculation, no one knows how this is going to end.

 

+100,000,000,000,000.

Good night and for the love of God, let it be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Very interesting post. The contribution of J G is what holds this whole thread together.And let's not forget his first officer Sal whose contribution is unique to say the least. Now regarding your comment "...solely in perceived economic gain..." certainly has merit but why. The market place often doesn't get it right when it comes to pure $ etc. but it is my opinion that in this case it did get it right. The future of 0858 will be brighter and more generally popular as the P4 it was originally than as a CanAm. The detracters of this in F Chat right now are making the most noise and many will always do so. But if Talacrest is doing what it is best known for with Piper supervising the market place will in my opinion reward the effort with an owner who will join in and be welcomed into P series fraternity and thrill many onlookers and Tifosi. This is my opinion of what the outcome will be and I agree it is for the best.Surprised?? Only time will be the final judge. tongascew

 

Wow this is scary.I wonder if E F and other team principles knew this. tongascrew

 

"The future of 0858 will be brighter and more generally popular as the P4 it was originally than as a CanAm."

Seriously, with this ridiculous windshield ?

 

What exactly is wrong with the windshield? Please could you and Jim clarify? Thank you.

 

The original windshield had some curvature near the top, it was actually curved in 3 dimensions. The windshield being installed is just curved in 2 dimensions, it is simply a flat sheet wrapped over a curved surface to form it.

Dino Martin's car also had (or may still have) a similar windshield. It is a lot less expensive and most looking at the car wouldn't know the difference, because the shaping near the top is pretty subtle, but if you look carefully it is pretty obvious if you know what you are looking for.

 

Thank you. Any idea of the cost of making a correct windshield?

 

Two examples of real P4 transformed into replicas with an approximate windshield.
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I always wondered what it was exactly about replica P4 windscreens (whether it was a Noble car or whatever) that wasn't quite right and I am grateful for your explanation. You learn something new every day.

 

Does anyone have a picture of this curvature at the top of the original P4 windscreens? It would be good for interested forum members to see it. Was/is this curvature present on P3 and 412 P cars?

 

What are the chances Piper knows of the incorrect windscreen and what are the chances he even cares?

 

David Piper was one of the great independents and spent a great deal of time with the P series Ferraris. His shop bought, sold, owned,repaired.modified.raced, prepared,built,restored many of these over the past fifty odd years.There isn 't much remaining that he and his shop haven't done.The point that racing and everything that goes with it was the primary effort is clear. Attention to authenticating every detail of a restoration was not the top priority. This is what is unique about Piper and is different from some other restorers. When you come down to it these are two very different approaches of the path to take with an historic race car. I tend to prefer the Piper way particularly when it involves a car with a racing heritage. Others think differently and their efforts are often to be commended. What I continue to have trouble with is the over restoration, particularly of interiors, that doesn't reflect the original in any way. tongascrew

 

Actually, in looking at it further, there's a bit of fullness and shaping both top and bottom

Here's a link to a pic of 0854 from the side and you can see more of the curvature that is obviously present.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/137863594-post378.html

Compare that with a flat windshield and the fact that the windshield doesn't have 3d curvature becomes obvious.

And OBTW, Piper knows for sure here's a pic of 0900..

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/136453142-post105.html

Napolis has an original windshield and has used that to make a mold so he can replicate a new one if he has to. And also there's the issue of street legal so Jim was smart to have the ability to make proper windshield if he needs one.

The Noble also looks funny because the roof was raised an inch, and added to a 2d curvature windshield it kinda looks like Grandma Duck's version of a P4 IMHO..

 

Here is a photo that clearly shows the curve:
1967Daytona24Hr_417 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

And Piper does know about the curve - he drew my attention to it in about 1994 - but he probably values cheapness over accuracy. ;-)

Paul M

 

Thank you, solofast and macca for explaining the windscreen differences.