1955 Ferrari 410 S Berlinetta | Page 2 | FerrariChat

1955 Ferrari 410 S Berlinetta

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 275GTBSaran, Aug 6, 2012.

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  1. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
    10,117
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Marnix
    Exactly my answer every time someone around me starts whining about millions being paid for a car.
     
  2. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    243
    Prices are steep vs prices were low

    Hard to argue against either possibility, however I will attest to one thing, there are some new players from new markets BUT the real issue is that there arent a lot of them and yet every dealer talks up the amount of business they are getting from these new markets. What I am seeing is a great level of diversification of the super wealthy (Billionaires @ 50% of the market), the wealthy (25%) and the recurrance of the wheeler dealer/ speculator (25%).
    The billionaires can and will buy whatever they want and they push along the market for things like 250 GTO's or any of the $20 million + cars and if the car drops in value to $10 they wont care, their fortune will still be intact. ITS the next level down, like this 410S or the numerous California's, maybe 4 already sold this year, with three more to come at Gooding & RM, and all of the other $2 - 10 million cars that will see a lot of price fluctuation, as the speculators decide they need their cash and the market might be reaching its apogee.
    Just like the 1980's if enough great cars come to the market at the same time the price will only go in one direction.
     
  3. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,827
    Because the Picasso is unique while the GTO is made 36 cars.
    And IMO some paintings by Picasso -for example "Demoiselles d'Avignon"- were so radical that they changed modern art until today. The GTO was a fantastic car but it was neither radical nor was its influence in design and performance that important in the automotive industry.
     
  4. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Although something tells me you are much older than I am (b. 1974) and have more experience, I do not share your opinion. Picasso is not unique in fact during his life and compared to artists who were painting in his period, he made more paintings than any of his peers. That resulted in him having good periods and bad periods. Ofcourse only part of his works are worth $100m + while others barely fetch $2-3m.

    I would argue the GTO is radical (that doesn't mean its beautiful) but given its performance and competitive wins, it surely is an Icon in automotive history. The market has decided and not just recently that the GTO is THE most important car in Ferrari history. Sorry but the market surely disagrees with your opinion. I stand by my thesis: A GTO will worth $100m in a few years time. That does not mean that the Ferrari market will not correct significantly downwards from current values.
     
  5. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    I think your right to think about the Ferrari market in this way. It has to be broken down in various segments. However how to split the segments - that is where it becomes tricky and is anybody's guess. I would probably split it the following way: $2-5 ; $5-10m and $10m+. I think the $10+ market will be relatively immune from any price swings. The most variance you will see in the $5-10m and $2-5m. I do it this way because I do not think the same person is bidding for $2-5m and $5-10m. I think those are two different buyers. I would love for many cars to come to the market at the same time. Because prices will go only in one direction then....
     
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,827
    Well, you didn`t get the point!
    Of course not every Picasso is worth $100m - but even the cheapest of his painting is more worth than the cheapest Ferrari. And Picasso`s early painting are much more important for the culture of mankind than any GTO which was not a radical car in terms of technical layout (single-camshaft, front-engine, nothing radical at all). The early PIcasso paintings were very much unique and changed the view on art and the history of art. His life is only part of the myth. Same with ol`Enzo`s life.

    Do you really believe that Ferrari made only important cars?

    Yes, the GTO is an icon, it was successfull as a race car and its today the most expensive car on this planet. Also I agree that its the most important car Ferrari ever made. But you need 3 of them to get an important Picasso! I am pretty sure that it will take many years if a GTO will fetch $100m. But if this will happen the $100m-Picasso is worth $200m!
     
  7. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    Ok I think I understand now what your saying. Well I would say comparing paintings with cars is difficult if only because each painting is unique. A painter will not paint the same thing twice (an exception may be the scream by Munch) whereas Ferrari's (even in the early days) rarely made only one model (except when customers demanded a unique piece). But here lies the advantage of Ferrari versus a painting. I think its more pleasurable to belong to a group of 36 GTO owners worldwide than own one type of model by Ferrari (or likewise one Picasso from a his good period) which no one else has. Because no matter how wealthy you are or no matter how successful, we are social animals and like to share our pleasures with others. Therefore owning a GTO can more rewarding (and is more rewarding according to the market) than owning a unique Ferrari which nobody else has.

    On the point of Picasso being a visionary and having revolutionized the art market, you are absolutely right- he did just that. But so did Enzo with his cars using F1 technology and allowing the people who like cars to have that experience in road cars. Both are comparable in that way. So while the GTO was perhaps not that radical in engine (an evolution of the 250 line) it certainly was in design. I think its fair to compare Enzo to Picasso and not a 250 GTO to Picasso. Paintings will probably always will be worth more because of the uniqueness of each painting. So perhaps your right when GTO become $100m, Picasso's Nude-Bust with green leaves might be worth $200m.....
     
  8. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,827
    Now we understand each other!..:)
     
  9. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
  10. ggjjr

    ggjjr Formula Junior

    Nov 11, 2003
    873
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    George
    I would argue that the GTO is nowhere near the most important car in Ferrari history. I would place the 166 Barchetta above it. The GTO was very luckily placed in the GT category, when in fact it didn't comply with the rules. If it hadn't been allowed into that class, it's place in history would have been a sneeze. It is a great auotmobile, but nowhere near being worth so much more than other Ferraris (like the P4's). It is the perceived value and social-ness that has driven the latest prices. Not to say that is wrong, per se, but it should be recognized for what it is, and they very well could be selling for $100M soon.

    George
     
  11. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    243
    Theres only one reason the GTO is worth more than any other F-car, just look at it. Art and beauty is all perspective but IMO this is the best looking Ferrari ever. EVER.
     
  12. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
    178
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Alex
    375 Plu-hus!
     
  13. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
    178
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Just one reason why the quote "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" is rubbish. Beauty can be scientifically determined. Other reasons of course are rarity and history and the 250 GTO was "lucky" enough to be born a winning race car. And unlike some small piece of shiny, crystallized carbon it's actually usable!
     
  14. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    this is a CM chassis car!
    it is the one and the only berlinetta version of the 410 sport
    there are 2 twin plug cars(works, full tilt boogey versions) and 2 single plug cars(not "works comp versios")
    these were made to do airport racing of the era at SAC bases and were mainly trying to beat SCARABS....FWIW

    this was with PB in Mas du Clos for many years....
     
  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Paintings will always be worth more than cars for the simple reason that Art museums attract many more visiters than car museums and those visitors can be monitised. There are paintings that if they came to market would trade for Billions, The Mona Lisa for example. When you bid for a major painting you're up against Museums backed by countries that want to turn that painting into tourist dollars.
     
  16. agup48

    agup48 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 15, 2006
    28,633
    Phoenix
    Full Name:
    AG
    :D:D

    Quite a gorgeous car!
     
  17. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    4,435
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Exactly. Say what you will, Art will always be valued higher by humanity than a car given it's cultural implication.

    That's why I think the Andy Warhol M1 might be the most potentially expensive car in the world.
     
  18. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,291
    Speaking of andy warhol, he collected the old masters........
    Ed
     
  19. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,291
    Was the car restored in europe? I suspect so, as there is a difference wrt to the brightness of the fittings and nuts/bolts.
    Ed
     
  20. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Le Monde Edmond
    That is indeed a very good point. I accept that is a strong argument. Art also does have social implications. Here is a scenario I can see developing though in the next 50 years (lets hope that by then I cannot drive anymore due to my reactions being to slow). But lets hope this does not happen. Governments impose strict carbon credits forcing all non-electric vehicles to be taxed at 10% of their value if they are to be driven. The automobile as we know it disappears and all classic cars force their way to government financed museums as well as private museums. I wonder if classic cars by then will also be traded like art?

    One more question: Could the 300SLR Uhlenhaut driven by Moss (722) be the first car to reach $100m if it became available? My guess its worth that today already given that there are only two in the world.
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,034
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    Not the answer to your question but I have read that they will never be for sale and that they are currently insured for in excess of £35,000,000 GBP. I'm sure Jim will chime in with the answer.
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Isn't this the car that was destroyed in the riots (Detroit?) and restored, was once blue and repainted white?

    Didn't we also debate how the nose is wrong?, or have I got my cars confused.

    Beautiful car, though. No car is actually "worth" millions, they are just bits of metal that can be remade ... a painting on the other hand is just canvas and paint but it also captured a one time event by an artist. My conclusion, we put way too much worth into art and antiques, and yet people starve and kids are abused, animals exploited to extinction just so some idiot can get a supposedly better erection (tigers) ... makes no sense to me at all.
    Pete
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Like the Mona Lisa that car will never come to market but if either did the Mona Lisa would sell for FAR more than 722.
     
  24. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,632
    Which rules did it fail to comply with?

    Best wishes, Kare
     

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