Chinetti Sues Ferrari | Page 7 | FerrariChat

Chinetti Sues Ferrari

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Aug 2, 2012.

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  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    How can something be worth something when it means nothing after it's issued? All a Classiche Certificate on a new 599GTO means is that when it left the factory Ferrari thinks that specific car was original when it left the factory. Once that magic moment is over it means nothing as the car may have been modified and only by performing a new Classiche Conformation can it have any value by certifying that that specific car is currently "original". The idea that a PPI by an authorised dealer, or competent Independent Shop can't confirm that exact same thing on an almost new 599 GTO for much less than the cost of a "Classiche" eludes me.
     
  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
  3. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Once the seal on the back is broken I have my watchmaker have a look before I buy.

    The guys I use to service and restore my cars know a lot more about them than the guys currently working at the Factory. As an aside Classiche uses many of the guys and shops I use.
     
  4. 360gtracer

    360gtracer Formula 3

    May 18, 2004
    1,022
    I was wondering when you'd chime in..... heh heh... :D
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Steven Robertson

    The guy in the thread below (see post 8) is going to borrow parts from one of his cars, get his car Classiche Certificated and then put the parts back on the first car. He was only doing it for his own use though.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364928&highlight=330+gts
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Makes that particular Classiche Certificate very valuable. Not.
     
  7. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Steven Robertson
    In this particular case, exactly!!!
     
  8. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
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    John!
    As Clark Gable said in Gone With the Wind, "I believe in Rhett Butler, he's the only cause I know"

    I'd take a good owner's word over what the factory has to sell me or tell me any day of the week.
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    Although it would be prone to abuse, the owners of Ferraris who have subjected their cars for Classiche Certification could get an affidavit to confirm that the spec of the car has not changed since Certification and each subsequent owner could do the same.
     
  10. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    David
    People who don't trust their own judgement or expertise pay a lot for the illusion of certainty.
     
  11. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    4,417
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    Mario
    That's true, but in the case of a watch it's an economical decision you'd be making, particularly if you see yourself selling it in the future. You can be 100% certain that a watch with no certificate is real, but you know the piece of paper will guarantee the next buyer's peace of mind. And that means more $$$ usually.

    With a car, things are different IMO... With a Ferrari, then....
     
  12. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    No paper has value past its issue even in regards to land. But it does express some peace of mind for that point in time and thus a benchmark. [dare I say marriage and birth certificates too for the joke value?]

    Problem with the program, and that is why it's a cash cow, is one needs to have a 'certified PPI[for lack of better term]' from Ferrari reps called Classiche.

    If it lasts long enough and it most likely will, it will be the new norm. People with tons of pocketbook green, not even born yet, will fall in line....resistance is futile.......kaching.
     
  13. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    It still is a matter of trust. Italian garagists love to tell incredible stories for anyone who cares to listen. They are 100% right palying their part in the chain of tradition, but that does not always mean they know what they are doing - or that they are telling the truth.
     
  14. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Then it's a premium put on it by the next customer.

    I'd rather do my own research and save the money.
     
  15. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    My advice: if you need a greater fool, you can't really afford buying that thing.
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    As one of my cars that they are working is leading an FIA World Championship this year I suspect they know what they're doing. As McLaren and Red Bull use them I also suppect they know what they're doing. As Ferrari Classiche buys parts from other guys I use and has work done in their shops I suspect Ferrari Classiche thinks those guys know what they're doing.

    The fact remains that Ferrari Classiche farms out a lot of the work "they" do to the guys who work on my cars.

    Some pay Classiche to have these guys do work and some pay less directly to these guys.

    The good things stay the same.
     
  17. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    Very little, if anything, to do with vintage.
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Making all internal components for 330 P 3/4, 412P, and P4 603 gearboxes exactly as raced at the 1967 Targa Florio has nothing to do with Vintage?
     
  19. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
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    Marnix
    No, leading a FIA World Championship has nothing to do with vintage.
     
  20. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
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    Zurich, Switzerland
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    Le Monde Edmond
    I think a car is no different than the example of the watch you gave. Someone famous said once that we never own these vintage Ferrari's we merely are good caretakers (or not so good caretakers) for the next owner. Its very true. And because the values are rising into very high numbers even though the Classiche department is not perfect (lets not forget it is a very young institution) it is good enough for the peace of mind for the next buyer. Especially if the next buyer is buying to diversify his assets. And this is the sad thing. I see a whole new generation of buyers who are very wealthy and are buying as investments. The true enthusiast like Jim with substantial resources is an exception- rather we will have new buyers who will buy and keep and then trade these vintage Ferrari's much like you did in the late 1980's (I was too young to remember, or better said had other interests). This will result in more and more people relying on the Classiche department. Especially because I see no one replacing the 'old guard' of experts like Massini, Ed Niles, Alan Boe etc to provide valuable independent advice.....
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    The same shop built P 4/5 CM and the 412 P transmission internals. In light of that fact I believe they clearly know what they're doing.
     
  22. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    True. Interestingly Marcel researched 002 before I bought it.
     
  23. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
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    Sep 7, 2004
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    Edwin K. Niles
    Safe4now: Curious about this scenario: If you can do any car "in house", who makes a decision about the sort of niggly things that drive the FCA judges nuts, such as the correct color and pattern of a heel pad, or hose clamps, or trim screws, or the color of the the horn trumpets? Obviously I'm thinking early cars here. Do you have a geezer on staff? Do you have a local expert on whom you can call (i.e. the local equivalent of Jess Pourret)? Or are you only concerned with the correct internal numbers on major parts? Is original color a factor? I have no strong feelings about the whole idea of certification, so this is not a challenge but rather just curiosity. Thanks.
     
  24. SAFE4NOW

    SAFE4NOW F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2004
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    #174 SAFE4NOW, Aug 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    1. Yes, we have an " old geezer " on staff... we call him Randy.
    2. We have a " direct line " to Ferrari SpA
    3. We have alot of the same connections as you do ( Jim G included ) to locate and confirm.
    4. We have very detailed instructions as to what must be inspected and documented. At our level, it's not open to opinion. It's the way Ferrari did it - per Ferrari build sheet - and nothing more ( or less )
    5. I attached a SAMPLE Classiche book , which will let you see what is checked, how it's tracked, and documented. ** The pictures didn't scan well, but I think you will get the idea from their descriptions.

    S
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    243
    There will always be car geeks like Marcel Massini or Woulter (Maserati) or in Washington Thor Thorson, hell even good ole Doug Nye. So long as there is cash out there to pay for the old cars there will be service industries and getting information on an old car is at point just another service. When you look through the Gooding or RM auction catalogues there are numerous cars being offered with Marcel Massini files included because this add's real value. I would suggest that Mr. Massini's attestment to the validity of a car is second to none.
    As to whether Ferrari's Classiche will ever be worth more than its cost is something only time will tell. For new cars probably not, because after all, as Jim said it doesnt actually tell you anything, and the added value of the certificate is probably more than the difference between a car that has it or doesnt have it. For older cars, the value of having the Ferrari Spa certificate saying this car was born as and with xx & xx is probably worth something and would possibly be nice to have.
    What will KILL it til it is dead is if they devalue the certificate by offering it on everything, thus killing its rarity, after all if every Ferrari is certified then there will be no added value attached to the certification. And similarly to the special edition 430's et al, that is where the value lays isnt it, being able to say oh you only have the plain 430/ 599/ Daytona/ 512B/375MM, I have the Niemann MArcus edition or whatever, and that makes my C@ck bigger than yours in this pi$$ing fight ??. I can currently see the same in the current value of the certificate.
    And the other thing would be if and when the skeletons that are the dodgy certificated cars start coming to market, such as IMO 0818 or a re-engined 250 SWB. Then people will start questioning the veracity of Ferrari's program. And so long as there is money from the nouveau riche Ferrari will certify even where there are issues, maybe killing the golden goose.
    If I am ever in the market for a top end classic such as a rare Ferrari I will simply hire the best representative such as Marcel or Thor Thorson and get the thing checked by my own people. Because that is the only way to independently know what you are buying isnt it...............
     

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