Chinetti Sues Ferrari | Page 4 | FerrariChat

Chinetti Sues Ferrari

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Aug 2, 2012.

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  1. deichenb

    deichenb Formula Junior

    Apr 3, 2007
    554
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks for the information, Jeff. I stand by the statement that it remains incredibly challenging to do as well as Heinrich Kampfer has done showing a car with a replacement block. I have inspected 337 AL, and the car is remarkable. It is a testament to the man that he did much of the work himself.

    I know it was sold in at Gooding Monterey 2011; I have not seen it since.

    Forza,
    David
     
  2. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,645
    California, USA
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    Erik
    Thanks - here it is for those struggling to read it from the low res image:

    >8^)
    ER
     
  3. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    Very interesting discussion, indeed. Maybe I can add a small amount to the question of FCA judging. I am a senior FCA judge, but I think mostly because of the number of early cars I have owned rather any vast knowledge. (Or in my case, half-vast!). The way it works is this: There are usually three judges assigned to a small group of cars, and those judges are people who have some particular knowledge about that group (class) of cars. Even though, as one of the three judges, I may be assigned to "exterior", if I have a question about something I can consult with the other two judges. Usually, one of the three has the answer. We can also quiz (challenge) the owner if it's something unusual.

    It's not unusual, in a National meet, for the judges to do some home-work beforehand. For instance, in the up-coming National there is a car that I used to own back before it had 20 restorations. The Chief Judge has asked me quite a few questions about some of the unusual aspects of this car, anticipating some issues. I've never had Classiche do that!

    As alluded to by Jeff K., there are standard deductions for any particular shortcoming. This helps "standardize" the point deductions. In theory, the same car would get the same score at different shows from different judges, as long as they are all working under the same set of rules.

    I'm not saying FCA is better or worse than Classiche; just different.
     
  4. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
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    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    #79 SonomaRik, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
    It is interesting and many of us, me specifically, have no legal background.
    BUT [here we go]
    It is slightly interesting from Chinetti's standpoint and far fetched IMO to believe Ferrari doesn't have a business right to certify it's value. Afterall, there are many fakes in the world and their certification does have merit to protect if not the brand, then that particular product.

    I might tend to agree that Ferrari doesn't need to be in that business but decided to for extra revenu if not to protect its brand...whatever it makes no difference.

    I can feel for Chinetti by overcharged or even challenged by the company that [perhpas] 'his' particular items have less value or even in question...according to 'them'/SPa-800#-monkey

    But revoke a trademark? Seems a nonsense path to take. Since NART is a value added and [after so many years allowed by implication if not their special relationship] 'authorized' Ferrari, then it is its own trademark. [is that a can of worms/side-shot? ]

    Following Ferrari's legal response they post a classic[sic] case of friv suite and under the terms they are not controlling trade just certifying it, albeit, for a price, and not specifically at Chinetti[?] so "there is no case" unless, what, friend of the court [or whatever you call it].

    is that restraint? is this suite necessary?

    Will be an interesting case.
     
  5. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,300
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    Jack Verschuur
    Probably the core of the matter Ed: For any judgement a car is awarded, a value or quantification can only be derived from its' consistency. Classiche has all the advantages one would want to have to produce a judgement, for starters build sheets, maybe period photo's. In any case, access to information most anyone else wouldn't be privvy to. That leads to expect that Classiche can and would be able to certify that a specific car is as it was when delivered to a specific first client, which is what I perceive to be their merit. It appears that is under dispute.
     
  6. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,799
    Santa Fe, NM
    Excellent point. We have a database whose sole purpose is tracking what motor Ferrari installed in what car for what race (500 Mondials and 750 Monzas). Because the mounting for the tipo 119 3-liter motor and the tipo 111 2-liter motor are the same, Ferrari was racing a car as a 2-liter "500" one week and a 3 liter "750" another week.

    there is also a gray area when it comes to the "factory" versus "privateer" maintenance/repairs issue; certain clients had unofficial "factory" support. I think I am correct in saying that Von Neumann, Parravano and Edgar had such unofficial support for cars that could not be considered "works" cars. So, what to do with those modifications??

    In general, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that something is "original" or "authentic" just because the Factory waves its scepter over it; many times in the face of decades of scholarship proving otherwise.
     
  7. gimmea250swb

    gimmea250swb Formula Junior
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    Mar 8, 2007
    575
    Washington, DC
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    Taylor
    There is a significant difference between buying a Ferrari, modifying it, and selling it as a Ferrari versus building a car in my garage and calling it a Ferrari - which is fake and arguably copyright infringement.

    Ferrari is using their copyright as the tool to control the after market. If I buy a 250 SWB today (man, I wish) and put a Corvette engine in it and sell it as a Ferrari, the Factory is arguing it's not a Ferrari - it's a fake - and you need to go through them to fix it. That just doesn't make sense. I suspect, in the government's eyes, as long as I have a real title that goes with an original stamped chassis, then its a real Ferrari no matter what I do to it.

    Does anybody have a SWB they'd like to give me? I promise not to put a Corvette engine in it.
     
  8. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    My advice is: get a second opinion at all times. Never trust only one single source of information, especially if that information is important to you and/or there is a lot of money involved. Things sometimes get very complicated and that's where science turns into a religion. When you pay for a statement, you get a paid statement; that's where Classiche certification, for example, gets weak. Best wishes, Kare
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    As I said before their view is they made the original engine and so if they make another one it is correct. Italians generally do not think like we do, simple as that.

    I can actually see their point of view, but their point of view effectively legalises replicas ... as long as Ferrari make them. I don't agree with this but just my opinion.
    Pete
     
  10. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    What Ferrari deems authentic and what your Government requires are totally separate matters.
    When you put a Corvette engine in a SWB, and subsequently ask Ferrari to authenticate it, they won't call it a fake, but they will point out that the car is not as they built it, and thus not authenticate it.
    If that were the whole matter, I'd say they have a full right to do so, but they are not consistent with their processes nor with their policies.

    IMO Chinetti is right in seeking clarification on this. Cancellations of the 2 trademarks though is an entirely different matter, a typical example of our litigous modern-day society.
     
  11. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

    Jun 24, 2004
    10,117
    The Netherlands
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    Marnix
    Just another moneymaker. If Ferrari only certifies cars that have newly built parts if those parts are built by Ferrari, than the knife cuts both ways. Both ways in favour of Ferrari that is.

    On another note, would any true Ferrari enthousiast and connaisseur think any less of a NART-modified competition Ferrari if Classiche refuses to certify it, because of those modifications?
     
  12. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    Dave Helms
    The very concept of certification of a Competition car, either private or a factory effort, requires an entirely different set of rules than that of a street car.

    Due to the intended use of the car, it was a 'work in progress' from the day it was delivered to whom ever the intended user was. By the time the delivery took place there were already aspects of the car that were out dated and required updating before a wheel turned in anger.

    For certification to happen to a competition car, it would have to be a chosen "moment in time" judgement. If that moment was when it was loaded on a transporter outside the Comp Dept door... so be it. Even at that I would wager a guess that Ferrari's records of what exactly that car consisted of would be sketchy at best as updates and changes happened on a moment by moment basis, even during the build.

    That being the case, it is doubtful that even a percentage of the details were recorded in detailed writings... it was a work in progress, a car that was meant to be changed, a test bed for ideas. Judge it by what? As it passed through the gates? As it was delivered? As it sat in the paddock at it's first event? When it took its first green flag? When it finally won a race? Every one of the above suggestions would require an entirely different set of criteria.

    Pick a moment in time but dont think for a minute the car is worth anything less when judged by what it was at a different moment. By it's very nature, it improved as it aged and age was measured in hours and days.
     
  13. gimmea250swb

    gimmea250swb Formula Junior
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    Mar 8, 2007
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    Taylor
    I guess what I was trying to say - but not very clearly - is that if Ferrari are using their trademark to control the market, then you have to go after their trademark to stop them.
     
  14. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,238
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    Brian Brown
    One of the problems is that Ferrari doesn't make the many of the new parts, and now Classiche has monopolized the sources of these parts. Ferrari Classiche doesn't manufacture the replacement engine blocks/engines/transmissions, MotoMotori does.

    In the past you could buy engines directly from Motomotori, but now you have to get them through Ferrari Classiche at a very inflated cost. Also if the exact same part that was purchased directly from Motormotri it would not pass Classiche certification, but if it was purchased through Ferarri Classiche, then it would be ok.
     
  15. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,238
    Frederick, Maryland
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    Brian Brown

    Classiche certification doesn't care about original color of the car or crash damage repairs. Ferrari has certified cars that have sustained substantial crash damage and been repaired and painted multiple times.
     
  16. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,826
    Aa far as I know the new engines are made in the UK by Hall & Hall.
     
  17. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
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    Paul Baber
    That is astonishing........Are you certain of this ?
     
  18. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    I think four cylinder components may come from another source than V12s...?
     
  19. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
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    Jack Verschuur
    Even within Modena I think there are more than one supplier for engines.

    Does Ferrari/Classiche do anything to these engines to warrant a huge premium?

    I can see why Ferrari would have a problem if others than them start stamping new replacement engines with original numbers. I seem to remember something to do with making sure that the original numbered parts seize to exist.

    In any case, don't they number these engines with a suffix to the number of the engine it replaces?
     
  20. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    According to C.C. from the UK, ...yes!
     
  21. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    So, what is the story with the Type 2 Certificate??? I know it has been referred to in other threads.I suppose Classiche may have created it and for some reason never utilised it. If it is in effect one would think it the perfect way for Classiche to certify a car in a lower category than the full Certificate. Possibly Classiche had second thoughts about the value of Type 2 allowing them to throw out any car they just didn't like for any reason they made up at the time. This of course makes no sense if indeed they are a "profit" center. Certainly after they aply a Type 2 Certificate they can go after the owner to spend hugh Euros to upgrade the car to qualify for the full Certificate. Comments please. Thanks tongascrew
     
  22. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Scott
    A personal example of what Brian has stated with a twist:
    At a major Ferrari club Concours in 2009, I viewed the gorgeous Dino that would later win Second Place. Prior to judging, I talked with the owner who showed me his Classiche certification and casually mentioned it did not have the correct engine. Sure enough, inside the Classiche binder, near the end was a page with a panel on it where it had two boxes; YES and NO for the original engine statement. This box was marked NO, yet the Classiche certification book had been completed and delivered to said paying client.
     
  23. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
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    Le Monde Edmond
    This is EXACTLY the problem among other things with Classiche. It probably however had the correct period engine 'stamped block' of course supplied by Ferrari and thus the approved the certification. I think in the long run they will run into problems doing this. As long as the market is strong and people do not care or differentiate though, they will be minting money along with the rest of the professionals involved in the classic car market....
     
  24. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    Classiche will certify cars without the ORIGINAL engine, if they currently have an ORIGINAL TYPE engine, all for a price of course.
     
  25. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    243
    John Draneas in a fascinating article in Sports Car Market wrote an article where he fleshed out the argument as to whether Ferrari Spa had undertaken anti - competitive business practices when they managed Classiche in the way they did. Further, they did an article the following month arguing the opposite, well a staffer with Classiche's Los Angeles agent did.
    FWIW the article said their is no reason why Ferrari Spa "couldnt" be guilty of anti - competitive behaviour, would depend on a judge and/ or jury. Again as many people have said why dont/ didnt Ferrari bring out a classiche that supplied parts at some enormous mark up (like they do) and maybe a restoration shop, then they could simply be another parts supplier, albeit the only official parts supplier.......... No cco-ercion in that. Various other companies also use this business plan, namely Mercedes Benz, Porsche et al.
    Finally, and most concerning, but not necessarily covered in this law suit is the ubiquitous situation where Ferrari are claiming to be the one and only arbiter of what is original or not which is 100% dependant on who pays what and has clout with Ferrari Spa. If I take my rare old Ferrari such as 0818 to Ferrari Spa what do they know about its history between leaving their hands in 1965 and when it is taken back to them many years later, sweet stuff all. Frankly thats where we need a nice little law suit, possibly not in Italy though as it remains unclear whether anyone would ever get a "fair trial" in Italy.
    All my 2c worth.
     

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