Only $17,000? What deal... | FerrariChat

Only $17,000? What deal...

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by MYMC, May 2, 2012.

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  1. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    For an annual....
    2007 Cirrus SR22GTS 1020 hrs

    Some of the highlights?
    Two cylinders, but it would appear that it will need the other four on or before the next annual.
    Nose gear...rubber bushing deteriorated causing washer to "imprint" on aluminum bracket
    TKS pump...only $3000 for pump alone filter another $225 plus labor
    Line cutters
    Alternate air door... bushings worn... $500...its never been used except on flight reviews to my knowledge

    Keep in mind this is a hanger kept, oil change every 30-50 hour almost 5yr old airplane. The engine has a five year/1000 hour warranty. Continental has declined coverage because the aircraft has over 1000 hours (by 20). I changed plugs away from the Champion fine wires to massive electrodes three months ago (due to misfiring) and had compression checked along with a scope. At that time that shop saw nothing wrong.

    Oh how I hate this airplane.
     
  2. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,373
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    Jason
    That's of course assuming what they say is wrong with it is all that's wrong with it.

    Would love to see how my own PPI would do.

    Damage history?
     
  3. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    No damage history...and I agree with you, I have my suspicions; however, I was referred to shop by Savvy...I am struggling believing all this. If I had not deferred some items it would have been over $20K
     
  4. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
    12,355
    Full Name:
    Juan
    Welcome to the land of aircraft and Ferraris. Sounds like a valve job I had done once by FoWas. I wonder sometimes why it is so expensive. Small market, legal, exotic materials,what......? And then there is turbine power! I've seen those home built corvette motors and others, but I cannot imagine them being better, but sure would be cheaper, and cheaper is not better in most cases. Austin of x-plane is considering developing the rotary engine for aircraft. I'm rambling but it is maddening that for some of us the cost seems high for a lump of metal or a part that you have to have, perhaps even depend on it for your life. In that case no price is too high.
     
  5. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2005
    3,213
    Behind a drum kit
    Full Name:
    Mr. Chupacabra
    Dear God...I'm sorry. That's pretty rough.
     
  6. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Should have bought a King Air...at least then it would be justified and there is always a market.

    Said it before and I'll say it again...I'm no Cirrus ANYTHING fan.
     
  7. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    23,988
    Portland, Oregon
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    Don
    Airplanes are expensive... that's just the way it is. The good new is, they make Ferrari maintenance seem cheap!
     
  8. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    My Ferrari was more expensive than my T-28, except in gas and oil.
     
  9. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2003
    19,036
    Virginia
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    Toggie (Ron)
    #9 toggie, May 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I was shocked when I got the bill for my Cessna 182's first annual in early 2010.
    The plane was brand new (a 2009 Nav III model), had about 150 hours on it.
    My bill was $2900 that first year.
    I was expecting $1500 or so, but not nearly $3k for a near-new plane!

    A lot of the costs were covered under warranty.
    For example, we had a couple of semi-major G1000 issues in both the software and hardware components.
    Those got fixed under warranty (thank goodness).

    The best part is they invited me into the shop (being a new plane owner) and they walked me through every mechanical system within the plane's structure.
    I got to see how the pedals/yoke/tail/wings were rigged, how the engine and prop worked, etc.
    It was great from an educational point of view.
    Pic of my "new" plane taken all apart below.

    Been lucky since, my costs have been more like $1000 to $1300 dollars each time.

    I can't imagine $17k for an annual. Yikes!

    .
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I love the "airplanes are expensive" comment.... I fly professionally and this isn't a first airplane.

    $17,000-$20,000 is unbelievable for a fixed gear, SE piston airplane. $3000 for a simple pump for a "non certified" TKS system is beyond my understanding...particularly when one out of a crashed Cirrus can be bought for $900!

    For the record the previous annuals were $2500 to $3100 and that covers all previous owned SE fixed gear aircraft.

    Next time someone wonders why the GA fleet is shrinking I think I have a pretty good answer.
     
  11. CavalloRosso

    CavalloRosso Formula 3

    Jul 12, 2007
    1,423
    Atlanta, GA/Vail, CO
    Full Name:
    SVO
    Michael,

    Sounds like you've really had bad luck with your Cirrus. That's really too bad. Perhaps you truly got a lemon???

    On a different note, how are you running your engine? I can't imagine two bad cylinders in 1000 hours. Are you adding Camguard? Have you considered it? Have you been getting oil analysis? Any metals elevated consistently or trending the wrong way?
     
  12. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,373
    ATL/CHS/MIA
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    Jason
    My last Bonanza annual was $20K. It's a 2008 and the first annual out of warranty. I bought it new and have already put 800 hours on it so it's a mid time engine and I had 2 cylinders redone.

    My CS costs nothing compared to my Bonanza. I could burn CS's while laughing and it still wouldn't cost what flying costs.

    Flying is way more fun though so it's worth it.
     
  13. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    I feel your pain. My SR22 annual was $10k and then 4 months later we had to put a cylinder in it.
     
  14. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    I'm wondering what the hell has happened to general aviation when it costs the price of a small house to do an annual on an airplane. New cylinders in 1000 hours or less! I'm glad that I can't fly anymore.
     
  15. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    23,988
    Portland, Oregon
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    Don
    Unfortunately, you can't buy a small house (or any house) for $10k any more. At least not one that is fit to live in-- maybe you could get a meth house in Detroit, or something.

     
  16. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
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    Shoreline,Washington
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    Robert Parks
    I know, Don. I was trying to make some kind of point. I think that the small recips have reached their peak in logical usefulness.
     
  17. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,373
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    Recips are still by far the most efficient planes you can buy. The reason for cylinders crapping out is my p[lane is Turbo Normalized and I run it at close to 90% power in cruise 100% of the time. It's hard on the engine. Others would say Continental just builds crap cylinders nowadays.

    I do 185 knots at 10,000' on 16 gph. You can't beat that for a cross country airplane. A turbine will cost me 10X more for just a little more utility.
     
  18. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    My point exactly Bob... AOPA and the like keep asking why isn't GA growing? To me its clear...

    To answer the questions posed above:
    Yes, we use Camguard, and the plane is flown LOP the majority of the time.
    As far as I'm concerned all Cirrus aircraft are lemons of one ilk or another...this is my 5th and I paid for one (warranty replacements, loaners, etc). The company I fly for has two and the 2010 was warranty replaced this year...I can go on.
     
  19. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    it's the same story, just a new day... nothing new here... I have been hearing that wail for years

    planes have become more complex, they are pushed harder, small planes have expensive systems that expand their capability... they are similiar in cost to systems the "big" planes use, when something breaks it will hurt cost wise... it gets real bad when an owner is hit with an avalanche of maintainance issues at one time... a 182 used to cost 50,000 new, now it costs 10 times that... when something needs attention, the repair to the system is similar whether it is in a 182 or Cirrus as it in the mega million dollar plane... the perception is that the owner of a small plane feels like he is buying a new one while a similar repair on the mega dollar plane is chump change when compared to the cost to buy it...

    airplanes come in 3 prices... "expensive... very expensive... and uncle" ( when you give up and get out )
     
  20. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,373
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    Jason
    It's true.

    I'll never give up though. Flying is the best thing I ever did in my life. Everything goes before the airplane does.
     
  21. MYMC

    MYMC Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2006
    326
    Charlotte
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Agreed...I'll complain about Cirrus and the costs but I won't give up flying for the same reason you listed above (other than my kids!).

    I guess my real issue is with the failure rate of the parts or technology (what little there really is). For example there is no reason for the failure rate of cylinders. If TN is pushing them harder then they need to be redesigned to meet the demand. Mine is not a turbo and as stated before it will need the other four jugs sooner rather than later.

    I've been through so many MFD's and PFD's I've lost count...is it really so hard to build something that matches the sale pitch?
     
  22. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

    Mar 25, 2004
    6,373
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    I don't think the engine issues are TN. I really do think Continental is making crap cylinders and valves nowadays. That's also the general consensus of most piston pilots.
     
  23. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    can you expand or separate the issues that were built by Cirrus and those by their suppliers like Continental, TKS etc Cirrus builds the airframe to accept the various sub compenents... unless the components are abused during the build, their suppliers should be the ones diss'd for not providing enough quality with their product
     
  24. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    I don't have any current experience with any of the recips, but back in the the day I don't recall having any recurring problems from either Lycoming or Continental. Things would go wrong with the engines that kept the engine shop busy, but nothing that one could associate with the engine manufacturer as being a quality issue.
     
  25. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    Conti's have a history of eating cylinders. The 200hp turbo motors (like in the turbo arrow and Mooney 231) ate them like crazy, it was very common to be rebuilding those engines at 1,000 hrs. The larger O-470 in the 182 isn't as bad, but it's only running 235 hp from a bigger motor, and that means less heat and stress. Still, the 235 hp O-470 isn't nearly as good as the 235 hp 540 Lyc in terms of cylinder life. Typically the Lyc will go 2,000+ hrs and the Conti's seldom got to 1500 without pulling the jugs and doing the valves. Just my experience with these particular motors.

    Turbo normalizing is still turbocharging. You aren't going to high boost, but at altitude you are still running to 75% power. That sounds fine, but remember, the turbo heats the inlet charge, so the engine is still running hotter than it would if it was making 75% power at 6500 ft with the throttle open. The intercoolers help, but they don't totally get you back to a cool inlet. With a TN engine you are getting full manifold pressure, a heated (probably 50 degrees F hotter) charge, and OBTW, the air that is running over the cylinders is less dense, and this is the real key. It is cooler, but it's only maybe 50 degrees cooler air (the temperature difference is between a 350+ degree cylinder head and the air is about 15% better) but at altitude the air is more than 25% (at 6500ft) less dense, so what happens is that the overall effectiveness of the cooling isn't as good. At 12k you have lost almost 40% of your pressure, so cooling effectivness is roughly 30% worse. The TN engine generally has a bit lower compression ratio than a NA engine. This means less expansion and higher exhaust gas temperatures than a NA engine. No big deal you say, but at these temperaures you are dealing with high temperature creep and stress rupture material properties. General rule of thumb is that 25 degrees F increase in temperature results in a reduction in stress ruputre life of 50%. So, while 25 degrees isn't much, it really hammers the life.

    Bottom line is that a TN engine running 75% power at 12,000ft has a lot harder life than it's NA brother is when it's running at 75% power and 6500ft.

    Couple that with the fact that you are nearly always running the engine at 75% power, or there abouts, where a NA engine might see a lot of time at 55 or 65% power, and that adds up.

    There is no free lunch, and shorter cylinder life is the result if you take all the advantage of the power available.

    The good news is that if you back off on the throttle, reduce the egt and head temps a bit, you can really get a dramatic improvment in cylinder and valve seat life. If you have an egt and cylinder head temp readout, think about where you have been running the engine and look at what it will take to back the egt down 25 degrees or so and the jugs will last a lot longer.
     

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