Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion | Page 13 | FerrariChat

Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by Julio Batista, Feb 9, 2012.

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  1. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    I have seen so many wonderful cars die on the altar of stupidity, that I feel some strong words are needed here. We can't afford every fool to learn by trial and error as we are running out of cars!

    I'm still sorry for my hard words...
     
  2. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    59,406
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I’m tired of posting and having users either ignore it or not understand the English language enough to comprehend. Julio’s recent post is wrong in almost every regard when stating my position. Would someone save me the time and frustration, go back through the few posts I’ve had in this thread, and then explain it to Julio in his language or a level he can understand.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141199006&postcount=38

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141202276&postcount=163

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141203039&postcount=174
     
  3. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,627
    I have huge respect for people who choose to buy 50's cars and love them passionately. For me your outburst shows how passionate your are and I welcome that. I am hardly alone.

    I still want to keep the fakes in sight; I hate them so much. I think it is very important to provide exposure for those who come in with some bright ideas about fakes, so they have a chance to learn what they are and they aren't. At the end of the day this might save a few cars, and if so it has been worth it. This way Rob's policy works for preserving the endangered cars, not against it.

    If replicas were moved to another section, they might develop a cult around them and more cars might get processed. Soon it might be inappropriate to say negative things about these cars in the realm of their own... I'd hate that.
     
  4. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180
    If you want to turn a GTE into a GTO, go for it, others have.

    for those who think this sheer lunacy, I say, nay nay. It's simply a matter of personal taste.

    No one seemed to mind when Jim G. turned an Enzo into P4/5, and no one it going to turn a GTO into a GTE. But make something more interesting than the original car, hell, why not, so long as the original car is fairly pedestrian. (by pedestrian I mean either relatively common or marginally valuable.)

    It's about perspective. Want the GTEs to survive? Then buy one, restore it for the love of the car and be inside out on it FOREVER. If that's not your idea of heaven, then don't. But if someone else wants to take an unloved GTE and make it into a well made replica GTO, that is certainly their choice to do.

    You say you don't want that to happen? Well, tough. There are tons of Ford Mustangs that are not GT350 or GT500's that are now as mustang GT replicas. Maybe the Mustang purists don't like that, either.

    Would I do that to a Ferrari? Nope, I would not. Would I buy one that has had it already done? Maybe. It would be situational, and I would for sure make it clear that the car is a replica from the start to anyone who asked.



    I simply can't understand your perspective. I would never own or make a replica, nor do I think those who make replicas, especially those who butcher old cars to do so, should be welcomed here. I have spent a small fortune restoring an old car and my primary request of the restorer has been to make the car as correct as possible. When the car's done, if I show it, I'm not particularly interested in having it judged at a concours by someone who makes fakes. I do agree with Kare and others about tracking replicas here.

    Jim G's situation is different IMO. There's no shortage of Enzos. And IMO Jim's Ferrari blessed, Pininfarina executed P4/5, built in period, can hardly be compared to a GTE based GTO.
     
  5. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Aug 5, 2007
    5,459
    Philly suburbs
    Full Name:
    Joe
    On a sort of unrelated topic. I'm not an art guy, but a buddy of mine has an original painting by Georges Seurat. It's a landscape type painting, and it is really incredible because it uses Seurat's famous style of painting called pointilism.

    Now here is my problem. I have ALWAYS felt that the painting was missing something. Particularly, it needs a seagull. I don't know where exactly, but every damn time I see the painting I say "Where's the seagull."

    One night I cornered my buddy and told him that Seurat got it all wrong. Maybe it was the bottle of Domaine Romanée-Conti talking, but he agreed.

    Over the next several months we scoured the globe until we found one of the few Seurat experts alive who also happen to have the proper artistic abilities.

    What followed was a painstaking process in which he carefully inserted a seagull into the painting. But not only did he do that...he went one better and put the seagull in a tophat carrying flowers.

    Now, its my friend's painting. He paid the cost of a small village for it, and he paid the cost to have it modified as he wished.

    So are we OK with my stylistic choices? :D :D :D

    Nobody is offended that I "modified" a great work of art, are they?

    Personally, the guy who takes a rare old Ferrari and morphs it into something else, even another Ferrari replica, is worse than me and my seagull fixation. And those who say "its his car..he's free to do what he wants" really miss the boat on the intrinsic value of these rare cars from a historical perspective and as art. If you are OK with that being done, than you should have no problem with me putting a handlebar mustache on the Mona Lisa, because personally, I think she would look damn fine with one.



    ;)
     
  6. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2004
    6,701
    Netherlands
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    Tom Wiggers
    +1!!!
    Owners can do whatever they want! Turn a real GTO into a spyder...
    Or use a Van Gogh to light the fireplace with it.

    Would I do it? Nope
     
  7. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    Oct 30, 2006
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    oscar
    Rob, (my first post in this thread)
    I must respond on your remark about english and Julio. If somebody uses correct english on this chat site that is Julio! It is of great arrogance if you uses the language (on this international site) to make your point. Julio is in my opinion right (and correct) on many points. You can't agree with him, that is fine but please keep your american style away from this discussion and give your opinion on facts.

    ciao
    Oscar

    ps Hear hear Julio and the rest, I love every post in this thread,
    ps 2 I noticed that not only the vintage section is spread with fakes!
     
  8. davidgoerndt

    davidgoerndt Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2004
    1,420
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    David Goerndt
    I find the discussion of replicas in this forum very important as it shines a very bright light on individual cars that aren't what they presume to be. I enjoy photographing cars as a hobby, and turn some into paintings using the photos as reference. When I see a car posing as something it's not, I feel a little cheated, especially if it's not listed as a replica. We have four major show in Florida that show classic Ferraris, I've been to three (Amelia Island is on my list to visit) and all three have shown replicas or misrepresented cars. Thanks to this forum I have been able to question those cars for what they are. I wish those showing the replicas would at least post a note as to what the car really is, not some vague note as to a "250 GTO" or a "59 Testa Rossa". I would not want these cars discussed in some obscure sub forum simply because they aren't real!
     
  9. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
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    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Oscar, point taken about English. However, my point is REALLY that Julio and now you don't understand a single thing I've posted. Read my 3 posts linked above again and I dare you to say Julio and I have different opinions.
     
  10. Redline Restorations

    BANNED

    Oct 22, 2011
    57
    Black Rock CT
    I think your apology to this section is great and needed. I feel we should be included in this apology as well seeing as how you publicly bashed us and continue to bash us still. Look at it from our perspective, if I have a vehicle for restoration and am looking for a restorer to do the job, I just might pass on Redline after reading the comments you have made in this thread, eventhough our restorations have been shown and won top prizes in many major Concours. I feel that a poster should expose those that need to be exposed who are intent on misrepresenting replicas as the real deal. And yes I do feel that someone who has complete disregard for the owner of the site as well as the sponsors who have done nothing wrong except offer a vehicle for sale, that was not built by us, and contribute monies to help keep FChat what it is should be banned. Despite what you or others may believe, one pf the problems with the internet is that no one can determine inflexion or the tone of ones voice. We have been nothing but professional and rather calm despite being attacked. I don't see what "threats" we have made or what you are referring to. I feel that when you speak on a public forum with intent on tarnishing the reputation of a small business, well that is just unacceptable. So maybe you can understand where we are coming from and why we feel attacked by you Julio, but I don't feel a community like this is any place for someone intent on ruining an honest businesses reputation who has been as straightforward as possible. As far as not respecting Vintage Ferraris, if you notice we have a 250 GTE for sale. It is being offered as fully restored ONLY. the reason being is we do not want to sell it in its current state out of fear that it may get butchered. This has been like this since we posted it for sale on day 1. This goes to show that despite good offers for the GTE in its current state, we do respect history and Vintage Ferraris and that we are not about the money. I just hope that your comments have not deterred any potential clients from taking a look at us here at Redline!

    Thank you to those that have and continue to support us!
     
  11. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    Apr 29, 2004
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    Peter den Biggelaar
    You mean the bikini thread? :)

    Does this thread have run its course? What about my proposal a few posts ago to make the replica thread a sticky one in Vintage? Insert a warning in the thread title that all replica post should only be posted in that dedicated thread? Move all posts about replicas to that thread and insert a first post which clearly states that FerrariChat doesn't support replicas and that the sole purpose of the thread is to out these replicas and keep track of them. And maybe who knows, one day turn that GTO replica back into a nice GTE :)

    Oh, and by replica I mean everything that's based on a Vintage Ferrari (chassis, engine and/or body). Not the Datsun fakes. There's a crappy replica thread for that in the General Auto section.

    Who do I need to contact to make this happen?

    Best, Peter
     
  12. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    I regret tiring you and misstating your position "in almost every regard". I am surprised, but as you say, it must be a problem with my English.

    My problem with my reading comprehension of the English language obviously extends to my writing; you have not acknowledged this morning a single statement I have made, or question I have asked you, beyond telling me that I understand nothing. That must also be because of my English. I must have also misunderstood, because of my poor English, the meaning of the words "Ferrari 250 GTO Reproduction" heading the vintage section when Ferrarichat opens.

    Even so, when you write that I can't understand your posts because I have an insufficient comprehension of the English language, at a level that is beyond my understanding, you are being offensive. In this we are alike, because I have also been offensive to you. I just thought you had accepted my apologies and gotten over it; now I see that I am not the only one here who can benefit from a few of the lectures on human relations and etiquette which I have very recently received.

    But we are different in that I have apologized and regret my offense, while you have not yet done so. You can either apologize right now, or you can wait for me to leave, or you can follow your sponsor's advice and kick me out of here. Something tells me one of the three is going to happen very soon. Just make sure you address me "at a level that I can understand".

    And English might not be my native tongue, but I would gladly pit my command of English syntax, style, grammar, and literature against the meager skills of a native speaker like yourself. We could also try Spanish, French, Italian, or German, but I doubt whether I could do it "at a level you can understand".
     
  13. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    Oct 30, 2006
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    oscar
    Take your point about your policy, only the way of putting it was out of line. Cant say that Julio (and me) and you are on the same wavelength although some points are explained correct. Did not go through all the post. But this thread is very much alive as it is full of emotions, makes it fun to follow.

    ciao
    Oscar
     
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    59,406
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    instead of your long winded posts that go in circles why don't you break down your specific questions to one sentence, number them, and then post them. I will respond only with my words already posted in this thread. maybe that will solve our communication gap.
     
  15. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    Julio, Oscar, and more than a dozen other concerned posters.

    Either they all, like myself, don't understand English, or...

    Your posts are unclear.

    TERTIUM NON DATUR!

    (That's Latin, which I speak poorly, at a level I can understand...)
     
  16. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Julio, I will do you a favor. Don't put yourself out like this or I will make you the fool. I have posted several times clear as day and after you lay out your questions I'm going to hammer it home quoting myself. So for your sake I don't want to make you look any worse than the first post you kicked this thread off with.
     
  17. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    #317 dm_n_stuff, Feb 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Joseph.

    If you owned the Mona Lisa, it would be yours to do with as you wish.

    would it be a crime to paint a mustache on her? Yes. Why? there is only ONE Mona Lisa.

    Is there only one 250GTE? If there was only one, it would be priceless and therefore a crime to alter it.

    was there only ONE Daytona? Nope. So a cut Daytona is less of a crime than say, a cut 250GTO. Although the thought of a spider GTO is intriguing. Probably make a STUNNING car.

    I'm not a replica guy. I'd prefer to fix a car back to as original as I can, my Dino is an example of that, and I've done it with a couple other non-Ferraris, but I can understand the desire to own something special, and perhaps a good replica is that path for some.

    Hey, and I happen to like seagulls in top hats
    D
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  18. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 20, 2009
    7,462
    Let's be adults here! Let's not mess the place up. We can handle this in private. Let's go to your office, I'll make some drinks for us all. We'll talk about it. Come on.
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    It is going to happen, it's just a matter of time (when I read some of the comments here).
    I understand they built 36 GTOs originally, that's not exclusive enough today. Wouldn't a (factory rebodied, personalised and certified?) 250 GTO Spyder (possibly) be unique and command a much higher price......?

    Marcel Massini
     
  20. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    So I am ignorant, unable to understand English, and now long-winded and going in circles! Well, at least I am not afraid of questions longer than one sentence.

    It's called subordination, Mr. Lay, and it allows us (well, not me: only English speakers like yourself) to develop complex thoughts with interrelated ideas. At different levels of course.

    I will not repeat my questions, because I have no interest in discovering what your next qualifier of my posts will be.

    Errare Humanum est, perseverare diabolicum
    (Latin again. I hope it's at a level you can understand)

    Instead of continuing your attacks, why don't you first apologize for your rude questioning of my language skills?
     
  21. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    Can I have some popcorn as well, please?

    C U
    Marcel Massini
     
  22. Julio Batista

    Julio Batista Formula 3

    Dec 22, 2005
    2,397
    Rob, thank you for the "favor". Don't bother. It's unfortunately over.

    Kindly cancel my Rossa subscription immediately.
     
  23. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    Oscar:

    THANK YOU. Spot on. Congratulations.
    PS: C U in Brescia.

    Marcel Massini
     
  24. pueche

    pueche Karting

    Oct 5, 2006
    112
    Madrid, Spain
    Full Name:
    Jaime Pueche
    Julio

    Don´t this the chat, it´s not worth.

    At the end, we all understand what this is about:

    - Destroying an original car to make a fake GTO is a crime.

    - The Breadvan is a car with history itself totally clear and known, imo an extremely interesting car.

    - What Jim did with an Enzo is just a great development, nothing wrong. It´s the Breadvan story happening today!

    Jaime
     
  25. pueche

    pueche Karting

    Oct 5, 2006
    112
    Madrid, Spain
    Full Name:
    Jaime Pueche
    I was meaning "don´t LEAVE the chat..."
     

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