Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

It is interesting. I don't see the same reaction in the Shelby/Cobra community as I do here. My fake cars below.
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Well actually, I haven't done anything. Although I do have several non-Ferrari parts on my 355, but that's my business and no one cares about that mass-produced crap anyway. And no one seems to mind the 400 series slipping into a realm of dilapidation, nor does anyone plan to spend big money restoring one. I wonder why that is. I always liked them.

Of course I haven't driven a GTE. I've never even seen one in person. Like I said, I don't go to a bunch of shows or big meets. That's not really my thing. I am sure they are wonderful. I am sure they sound great. I am sure they are not as nimble or racy as a GTO. I am sure that I would rather have a GTO, as I am more of a race car kinda guy.

My point is simply that what somebody does to their car is their business. As long as they don't lie about it.

I am clearly guilty of not caring as much about the original preservation of every Ferrari ever made. Sorry. They are very special cars, but at the end of the day to me they are still just cars.

 

Furthermore, the changes are really only to make it visually deceptive. I suspect that the driving experience between a GTO and a GTE isn't as much as you might think, and the driving experience between a fake, GTE-based GTO is probably even close to the GTE.

So, if the driving experience is basically the same, isn't the only point to make onlookers think it's a GTO?

 

Come on Jim. Some of us have heart conditions here!

What a gorgeous car. You must be very proud of what you've accomplished.

And don't tell me the 458 wan't influenced by it. If it wasn't, it's the biggest coincidence ever.

 

No offense , but the Pantera guys don't have any reaction either I do give credit to the Cobra builders in that the don't try to fool anyone, they are up front about it, unlike what happens in Europe.

 

This is what replica builders are made of: they have no idea what a GTO really is, they have no idea what a 2+2 really is, but at the end of the day they have a replica they think looks and drives like a real thing.

In real life the shortened GTE chassis no longer supported by the steel unibody flexes all over (some have broken because they were butt welded together!) and the rear chassis tubes forces driver seat so close to steering wheel that only a midget will fit in. But the owner is still convinced that he looks like a millionaire and that the ugly mongrel is fully equal to a real GTO. Very soon the "GTO" is forgotten into a garage or offered for sale somewhere.

Many people do not understand that during SWB production Ferrari built 4 different chassis types for various 250GTs: 539 (SWB), 508F (S.2 Cabrio), 508E (2+2) and 539U (Lusso) and that one cannot be changed to replicate another without complications. This is why all serious fakes are built using a scratch built chassis - and killing original cars in order to build a track car is complete waste of wonderful cars. No "GTO" built using a 2+2 frame will ever be able to turn out a lap time anywhere near a real GTO, that's how close they come.

Go buy a Porsche and leave Ferrari for those who know what they are good for.

 

Of course, ultimately any owner has the right to do what they want with their own Ferrari, and there is not a lot the rest of us can do about it. However, many see certain cars, not just vintage Ferrari's, as works of art, art which might define a time period, or that represents an important or influential design, or an evolution in the history of the automobile, or like a beautiful painting, it might appeal to the collector in a very emotional way. Art collectors who pay 6, 7, or 8 figures for paintings, which are just canvas and paint, or collectors who pay 6, 7, or 8 figures for cars (just cars) are passionate about their beliefs--more power to them! So, the destruction of a rare (opinion) piece of automobile art, where only a limited number exist, to create a copy of another piece of rare auto art, that already exists, but costs too much to own, is something that they get passionate about protesting. In the end, people are going to continue dismantling the less valuable 250 GTE's, 330 America's, etc., and people are going to continue to have opinions about it. Ultimately the question seems to be, if a chat site, dedicated to Ferrari, should so prominently display replicas, or the discussion of replicas/recreations, in the Vintage section, and that appears to be up to FChat and Rob Lay. However, in my opinion, it has been very healthy to debate the whole recreation/replica/fake business here in the Vintage section, where likely exist the strongest opinions on both sides of the issue.

 

To me it is a genuine 250 GT SWB with an original (as in: not mimic-ing anything else) one off body. I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, those are often the more interesting (not necessarily beautiful) Ferrari´s.

I think no one, not even mr Batista or mr Massini, would argue that it would be a disgrace to discuss s/n 2891 in the Vintage-section.

 

I couldn´t disgree more. You obviously have no interest in vintage Ferrari´s whatsoever. People like you should be discouraged from ever purchasing one. Seller beware!

 

THANK YOU SIR.
This is exactly what I always felt.
The vintage section is the wrong section.

Marcel Massini

 

Chassis numbers:
2819 GT was born as a 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Scaglietti and became the famous Breadvan.
2891 GT is a genuine 250 GT SWB California Spider Scaglietti. Still is the same today.

Marcel Massini

 

but still both have a place in the Vintage-section, no?

 

+1. And if a Ferrari is "just a car", why not buy a Peugeot, a VW or a Mazda to name a few? They are cheeper to convert. In the USA they call that Custom. In Europe we call that Tuning. Leave the Ferrari to the real connoisseurs.

 

If an apology was due, this one certainly seems to be sincere and cover all bases.
If nothing else the original post certainly elicited a lively discussion.
I find Julio's participation on this site to be of great value and think it's probably time to put this all to rest.

TomB

 

+1. Julio leaving, either on his own or via a ban, would be a loss to FChat.

 

Julio My Friend

I admire your passion.

I really do.

Your apology is heartfelt and more than accepted by me.

I'm glad that you feel that threads that discuss the things I mentioned should still be discussed in Vintage.

I understand your, Bryan's, Marcel's and other's feelings about turning 250 GTE's into "250 GTO's" Obviously I feel different about The Count turning a SWB into the Breadvan or me turning an Enzo into Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina but I accept that other's don't.

I still don't, in light of his involvement in the Festival of Speed and The Goodwood Revival both of which allow pure replicas to participate, understand your putting Doug's name in the same sentence as Marcel , Bryan and other's in this matter.

Best Personal Regards

Jim

 

Ok, now Julio has issued a heartfelt apology. Sounds a little edgy still, but I think he's genuinely sorry for the tone, but not for the can of worms he opened.

can we get past the exact wording of his first post and continue the discussion about what we'd like to see here for content without continued attacks on him and others?

Oh, and Julio, I've never seen Rob ban a member here because a sponsor asked him to. he's not that kind of guy.

I think we're on the right track, talking about the issue of replica, rebody, etc, and what does or doesn't belong here.

Maybe a fresh thread with a poll would help?

Dunno,

d

 

I'm ok with replicas being advertised. I'm not ok with them being here. I think that's the way to spin this. Rob's sponsors are free to sell whatever they want, right? They pay for the privilege, but what they're selling should land in an appropriate sub-forum, not just in the one they pay for.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Remember, I spent quite some time as a moderator here, and know Rob pretty well. He's not that kind of guy, just isn't. I don't always agree with him, but I've never seen him bow to an unreasonable demand from a sponsor or member here.

It just doesn't work that way.

Now, if you piss him off personally, all bets are off.

D

 

Well I have without question shown my ignorance and have nothing to say in response. Except that sometimes you don't get at the truth without a little friendly discussion...

 

I think some of my comments imply that I don't understand the passion for Ferrari. I actually do. And this section of Fchat has it in highest concentration. It also is frequented by a special group of people. But this thread has probably by accident brought out some deep set emotions, and I don't want to lose sight of the fact that people and relationships are more important than any car.

I may not know jack about old Ferraris, but I know a bit about relationships. In any good relationship, you have to know how to have a healthy fight.

 

I think you're entitled to your opinion, PERIOD.

Others may disagree.

If you want to turn a GTE into a GTO, go for it, others have.

for those who think this sheer lunacy, I say, nay nay. It's simply a matter of personal taste.

No one seemed to mind when Jim G. turned an Enzo into P4/5, and no one it going to turn a GTO into a GTE. But make something more interesting than the original car, hell, why not, so long as the original car is fairly pedestrian. (by pedestrian I mean either relatively common or marginally valuable.)

It's about perspective. Want the GTEs to survive? Then buy one, restore it for the love of the car and be inside out on it FOREVER. If that's not your idea of heaven, then don't. But if someone else wants to take an unloved GTE and make it into a well made replica GTO, that is certainly their choice to do.

You say you don't want that to happen? Well, tough. There are tons of Ford Mustangs that are not GT350 or GT500's that are now as mustang GT replicas. Maybe the Mustang purists don't like that, either.

Would I do that to a Ferrari? Nope, I would not. Would I buy one that has had it already done? Maybe. It would be situational, and I would for sure make it clear that the car is a replica from the start to anyone who asked.

Would I do it to a Mustang? HELL YES!!! the GT500 replica would be a hell of a lot more fun to drive, and there are a TON of '65 fastbacks out there begging to be rebuilt into something.

Interesting discussion, eh?

D