Should i RENT my FC car? | FerrariChat

Should i RENT my FC car?

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by enjoythemusic, Feb 12, 2007.

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  1. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
    10,676
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    Steven
    Just came back from getting fitted for the beaded seat by the US importer of the VD chassis FC car. Seems 3+ pro level guys are left in the cold without a ride for the season. While i do not fully understand why they rent instead of buying/owning a car...

    There are six pro races this year and only one interferes with my personal track dates, which is no big deal as can easily do 20+ track events (given funds, strength, and desire) so missing a single event is no big deal. The car has been maintained by the US importer of VD FC cars and he would act as caretaker/mechanic/pit chief/etc of the car and take the car from his shop near me all the way through returning the car back to his shop during the rental period. The guy renting the car would take care of all expendables, any damage incurred, etc. So as i understand it, the car would be returned to me in the same condition (or better if he knocks off a corner or what-have-you).

    Engine is nearly newly rebuilt and plan to change engine from Pinto to Zetec end of this season, so engine wear is what it is.

    What amazes me is that while i got a very good deal on the FC, it appears to be a sellers market because i have a current spec pro level car (a rare thing it seems). So it is a seller's market as there are at least THREE drivers right now hunting for a seat for the season. It appears due to ZERO supply and high demand these sponsored driver(s) wants to rent my car for the season for just about what i paid for the car(!).

    What should i do? Renting the car for six pro events WILL NOT interfere with my track schedule except for perhaps one event out of twenty+. Anyone familiar with this and what pitfalls one should lookout for. MANY thanks as ALL help is ALWAYS appreciated.

    And yes, if renting driver totals the car they pay for the car in full. Added benefit, car is maintained at the costs of the person renting the car per se to some extent. This would save me some of the costs to maintain the car to some degree. Am i missing something or do sponsored drivers just put the rental fee as a business expense or ????
     
  2. pete04222

    pete04222 Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    613
    Maine, USA
    Full Name:
    Peter Cyr
    I don't know Steven,
    Once you accept that first check then you are in the business of renting racecars and as a business owner you have some liability. The tax implications you can work out, but if a third party were to get injured some of the liability would fall back on you. I know they sign waivers at the track, but what about on the way to the track? Suppose the car falls off the trailer on I95? Here goes YOUR racecar straight into the path of the soccer mom's SUV. Her husband is a lawyer and after they go for the guy who was towing it, they go for you, the owner of the car.

    Chances are nothing like that would ever happen, but...........
    Before you go off renting out your car I'd look seriously into liability issues.
     
  3. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2004
    3,334
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Charles W
    This seems like a no brainer to me as the VD supplier will be taking care of the car.

    Now why would they rent instead of buy? Well, you answered your own question without even knowing it. It's costing them the same amount as you spent on buying the car. So, if they were to buy the car the cost of the prep and transport would probably be about what they're paying now. They want an arrive and drive and IMO it's a good way to do it. Finding cash to go racing is hard, and just imagine if they had to not only find the cash to buy the car but also the additional amount to run it. No, even if they were to buy the car it'd still cost them at least 50% more to do an arrive and drive. Then even if they were to sell the car at the end of the season I doubt they'd get a whole lot for it. Race cars tend to be nothing more than paper-weights when the next model comes out, and didn't you say VD was going to be releasing a new FC soon? That may be the reason. It doesn't mean that your's can't compete with the new model, it's just that perception will have changed and racers always want the newest and best advantage.

    If your're a hot-shoe you're not planning on spending more than a season in any given formula. By not owning you're freeing up cash for other things and then you also don't have to worry about selling it at the end of the year.
     
  4. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    There is a business around race car rentals. A number of my friends do it on both sides. Personally, all of my deals have been on a handshake. My deals are the exception, not the rule.

    Typically, it is always done with a contract and a deposit. Driver knocks a couple of corners off, driver pays. Driver balls it up--regardless of "fault"--driver pays. I'm sure there are a few here who have more first-hand experience with contracts, etc. I'm having lunch with a team owner tomorrow who could shed some light, if you're interested.

    Ultimately, though, you might have a way to recover some your costs against the purchase of your car. However, what's the cost to you if you miss a couple of key test dates or races this year?
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
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    Peter Krause
    +1

    I used to be in the race car rental business...

    NO MORE!
     
  6. jjstecher

    jjstecher Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2002
    962
    Rochester Minnesota
    Full Name:
    John Stecher
    Personally I think that your asking for trouble unless you have a good lawyer on hand. You have liabilities that your going to need to take care of. For example what happens if a wheel comes off because of a failure in some prep work. You should easily get sued. You need protection against this. It can get really dicey here given todays standards of everyone wanting the free lunch.

    My next fear would be that even if someone signs a contract to pay for your car if they whack it whats to say they actually will. Are you going to do credit checks, get down payments via credit cards, chase down dead beats that don't pay. What about abuse on your baby?

    I don't know man...seems risky to me and I don't think its worth it for you.
     
  7. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    in a word...NO.
     
  8. 2000YELLOW360

    2000YELLOW360 F1 World Champ

    Jun 5, 2001
    19,800
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    Art
    This area is a mess. You need to figure out how to make darn sure of two things: 1. that you collect for the rental, and 2. That the rental covers your direct, and indirect expenses.

    I've seen more than a few of these deals, written a few myself, and I've got to say that you need to be very, very clear on what happens when the vehicle leaves your hands. Example: motor blows in 1st practice, their mechanic says bad assembly, your guys says, they abused the motor. Why put yourself into that position: the agreement should specify that whatever happens, they fix it, and they have the right to inspect, disassemble, etc., to verify that all is well. There are more than just those pitfalls, make sure that you get a written deal, and that the counsel you use, knows what they are doing. I can either do that, or recommend others who can. Don't do this on a handshake, or I suspect you'll need a prochtologist (sp) when your done.

    Art
     
  9. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    The good news, the car is being taken care of by the importer and yes can now see that for cost of car they get to arrive and drive and not have to do setup/tweak as i do. As for the new VD, same chassis and same basic specs. Car is at current specs and this winter with Zetec will be at 2007 spec. Right now SCCA is 'crippling' the Zetec by playing with engine mapping and minimum weight so Pinto guys seem at a plus in 2006. For 2007 we suspect the Zetec will be the way to go.

    For now, there are no key dates as am just learning the car. Of course it would be nice to be the hot shoe rookie beating all the 'legends,' though being a realist i would be elated to podium once... or even twice this year. As for track and test dates, there are so many to choose from that i could spend all summer living out of my enclosed trailer and travel throughout the USA from track to track.



    PLEASE PLEASE more (brief) details. If you do not want to post public, please PM me why and/or your voice # and we'll talk. MANY thanks my friend.
     
  10. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
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    Peter Krause
    It's too painful to recount here! :)

    In a nutshell, it's as Art says in why it is so difficult to make sure "that the rental cover(s) your direct, and indirect expenses."

    In my case, I was seduced by the fact that one (or more, later on) of the "slots" on the trailer were filled and by the "big" check that came with it.

    The more I did it, the bigger hole I dug when, upon return to the shop, I was confronted by job lists way longer than if I hadn't done it at all... Keep in mind, my rentals were "old" Club race cars (like yours), too. They were rented by "friends" and "friends of friends" and nearly always on handshake deals.

    I never got burned contractually or by being liable. I just realized that financially, it didn't make sense. Now, maybe with a brand new 997 GT3 Cup car...

    My rentals did cover the directs costs, and I was compensated even when a customer selected 2nd when he meant 4th, with the single-stick engine you have, and comprehensively detonated it, causing a good-sized and spectacular fire down the first third of the back staight at VIR! This was on Thursday test day... We took the car back to the shop, put a spare Elite in it, brought it back and the guy missed one session (out of six) for the weekend!

    In the end, the indirect costs mounted fast, and it put me in a big hole, especially consuming massive amounts of time...

    I can add that this was a plan hatched to help pay for the "refurbishment" and "repair and maintenance" of customer-owned and to showcase these customer-owned cars while they were "for sale." In the end, I sold the cars and retained the service, transport and support business while growing my own, and the story turned out fine. No more rentals for me, though. :)

    -Peter
     
  11. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Ahh ok, you as the mechanic/transporter lost money. Though i would be the car owner who rents the car and gets a check. How did it work out for the owner renting/showcasing his (or her) car? Obviously MY concern is the car's condition as she is returned to me and, of course, low.no liability and, dare we say it, make a buck or three. MANY thanks.
     
  12. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Ain't no such thing as "making a buck or three" in Club Racing...

    If the prep guys are giving you back a car that's equal or better than it was when you gave it to them, that's your profit. If you get money on top, that's flat amazing!

    My customers got a small check and a better car. I showcased the cars and ultimately sold them, making money for me and the owner.

    I'm sorry, I can't recommend that you as an owner rent out your car, especially for the Pro Series. People drive differently there and if they go as fast as they need to, they'll take far more out of the car in one weekend than you will in your first season...

    -Peter
     
  13. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Many thanks, your help/advice is very, very much appreciated..
     
  14. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 3, 2006
    27,855
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    FelipeNotMassa
    To rent or not to rent,
    That is is question.

    Suggestion: Go sit in a cold dark room until the feeling goes away.

    Ciao
    Dr. Phil
    The first 100 years are the hardest, after that it's all down hill.
    Now, go take on the day.
     
  15. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 4, 2004
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    David
    Does your car have the Z tech engine which I believe is required in the pro series ?
    Yes pro racing is VERY hard on machinery.
    A friend rents FVees and he says that he hopes there is a crash as he makes more here than the race itself.
     
  16. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    I think Steven is thinking about installing a Zetec next year, when they're not so hobbled to insure parity with the single-stick engine. There's not that much difference in the lap times for the $10K it takes to switch...

    The Pro series (Mike Rand's Hankook deal?) has a class for Pinto motored cars. So did the Cooper series. They need it to make up the numbers...
     
  17. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    While the cost including install labor is more around $15k (engine, ecu, other bits), that is the plan. Right now she also has the more narrow (about 1-inch) front track versus the newer/wider version. There is a debate which is better and some argue the wider versus narrow front suspension is track dependant as to which version has the advanatge.


    i beieve it would be for the Hankook series, though there are other series. Will learn more on Saturday as we are verifying the bead seat fit and other bits plus there is a pro meet and launch of the new 2007 FC (plus Pi rep will be there, etc).
     
  18. LightGuy

    LightGuy Three Time F1 World Champ
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  19. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Agreed about the Z being a big plus. As for buying another car, the chassis are the same as are many other bits. Provided everything else is in excellent condition am not sure of the benefit though if there is really that huge a diff it would be easy enough to make a descision when the time comes. For now she is a Pinto and a learning car... like the 308.

    Like many things in life, throwing a few dollars will provide a solution if one is desired.
     
  20. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Peter Krause
    There are a hell of a lot more Pinto FC's than Zetec cars.

    One of the reasons is that there is no consistent Pro series, hence not a lot of Zetec cars (and even fewer conversions) being built. This engine conversion idea has not taken off like people who sold the idea to Club Racing said it would...

    The few guys that owned these cars were able to put together a cogent plan for allowing the Zetec cars into Club Racing as Formula Continental because there was no place for the Zetec cars without Club racing, sort of like the Old Pro Series S2's into CSR...

    Steven, that's true. The economics of finding a good Zetec car are better than converting yours...

    Just enjoy it. Think about the next race, not next year...

    -Peter (going racing next weekend)
     
  21. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2003
    5,180
    Late to the party, but I also recommend that you not rent out your car. Though the rental race dates may not conflict, time needed to prep/make repairs/service (rebuilds?) could be a problem. It's tempting, I know, believe me. I actually own a formula car solely for rental purposes (an FSCCA), believe it or not. Huge moneymaker, the cash just keeps pouring in ... j/k, as my daughter frequently texts me..

    Does FC have the enthusiasm/car counts that would make it worthwhile to join a pro series? When I sold my Zetec, years ago, it seemed to me that the series was in flux, if not in trouble, but that was about when FBMW, F Renault, and FM were coming on strong. I believe Baytos was in charge at that time. It just seems like the way to go is pro Mazda, but I haven't looked into it in a while now.
     
  22. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Sep 15, 2004
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    Baytos got out at the end of 2004, IIRC. It stumbled along until Mike Rand picked it up at the end of of 2005 with Hankook money and had a nice, East Coast series with mostly Pinto cars and a few fast Zetecs last year. Haven't heard much recently.

    The heyday was 2002-2004.

    There's WAY too much going on for any series to be terribly successful for more than two years, unless you're BMW or Mazda.
     
  23. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Steven
    Lucky you, racing next weekend wile i am looking at 4+ feet of snow.. with 8+ feet wind drifts! Hell, am getting so antsy am looking at my 308 with Blizzak WS-50 tires and debating going wild on my local (frozen) lakes. As for the FC, seems here in New England we have a very high amount of good FC drivers and cars. Maybe it is an East Coast thing??? Agree about next race versus next year as, heck, we still do not know if i'll love or hate FC.

    The good news is that at first was concerned about there being enough events to provide good seat time, as FCA and others can't allow open wheel guys due to track rules. Looking at the 2007 schedule for SCCA, COMSCC, FPR, F2000 CS... i could race nearly every week from mid April until October or thereabouts! My poor old tintop Ferrari will only see a few open track days if i can convince a friend into driving her to the local track as i tow the FC in the trailer. In some ways it is sad to know the 308 will be semi-retired. Do old tracks cars that survived the years of use go to a special super happy heaven? i hope so.

    As you said, it is about the next race, not next year and appreciate your keeping me focused back on things. Speaking of focus, tomorrow is my first meet-greet with the pro guys.

    ------------
    ------------

    WCH: Many thanks on your advice. As i said above, there is a HUGE amount of FC driver here in New England and quite a few are extremely talented. Maybe New England is like Florida... but instead of old retirees we get the 40-ish year old FC drivers?
     
  24. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
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    Pro racers are fast. They abuse things b/c it's not their own. You're car will be abused but cared for. In the end, you're car will be worn out a need a frame up when the season is over. Are you going to do that, or are they?
     
  25. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

    Apr 20, 2002
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    Excellent question! As i am seeing the guy tomorow for discussion as we double check the fitting of the beaded seat we did on Monday... Will know more tomorrow.
     

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