Fiat Dino Coupes were Bertone, Fiat Dino Spiders were Pininfarina (they look a bit like a 246GT with the roof cut off if you squint from 100 yards). Bit like Alfa 105 Coupes v Spiders in terms of different designers. Make a nice sound but I think the engines have no common parts with the 246/Stratos motors. Bit like people with 130 Coupes saying that they have Fcar motors in them...
the 130 engines were cast iron not alloy from memory but were based on the 2.4 litre V6 stretched to 3.2 by fiat I liked the coupe but the spider was far more Ferrari-like and have seen a few where the owners put Ferrari emblems all over the fiat emblem .... looks tacky and smacks of inferiority complex when in fact fiat is the parent company, go figure ...... no Ferrari stuff on my fiat2300s, wouldn't degrade it
Sorry, not right, Fiat Dino Coupes and Spiders have identical engines to 246GT. ie. cast-iron block, quad cam. Stratos Stradales (road) had iron blocks, competition cars usually alloy, derived from the early 206GT Dino. The Fiat/Ferrari Dino engine collaboration came about because Ferrari needed a down-market model to tackle Porsche but didn't have the volume to justify the tooling cost. The blocks were cast by Fiat, which is part of the reason Dino's were not badged as Ferraris, the other of course being Enzo's pride - only V12's could carry his name! The heads were done by Ferrari and of course the crank, which is why a Group 4 Stratos can pull 10,000rpm. It all ended because the Fiat Dino was a flop and Ferrari needed a V8 to take on the Porsche 911's increasing performance. (so they dug in their archives and started from the Lancia V8 from the D50 F1 cars they inherited in 1955 - did I mention I was a Lancia bigot?). The Stratos got the Dino V6 because Ferrari no longer wanted or needed it and Fiat were calling the shots in any case. 130 Coupe engines are not related to Dinos at all, they are a single cam per bank with a different block. Lancia were building similar V6's (here we go again) since the 50's so Fiat had access to lots of design experience and perhaps this was another case of cost saving. (We need a Fiat bigot here) But whatever the badge, passion and personality exists in every Italian engine.
actually Ian the collaboration between fiat and ferrari was due to the new regulation for formula 2 racing which stated that at least 500 units had to be produced in 1966. It was the 1600cc engine era and Ferrari had produced a 2 litre quad cam engine but needed to build 500 units in the timeframe required. So he gave the engine to FIAT to produce the quantity and then reduced the capacity without modifying the block which was what the rule stated. FIAT then did lots of modifications for the production run and also to increase the durability (all done by Lampredi who had left Ferrari by this stage and was working for fiat) so although the block was the same as the one racing , the rest was different as it had to meet different criteria (like lasting for more than 200 miles!!)
there is a lot more to this story but from a fiat angle the V6 in the 130 is very much associated with the 246GT engine but as you say Lancia had been building these engines for years but once the V6 Ferrari built was handed to Lampredi it would have been far better (can you tell I'm a Lampredi bigot )
worth reading up on this little article for lampredi lubbers: http://www.mirafiori.com/~courtney/128/history/MOUSE_THAT_ROARED.html
I've seen a F2 V6 and it struck me as looking somewhat different to 206/246GT, but I'll check my bookshelf tonight. Isn't it just amazing how many engine designs and configurations Ferrari produced over the years? Now how about a discussion on Lampredi's "liners screwed into the cylinder head" idea... God or Dog?
yes the F2 engine would look very different as the block is the only "common" part between the Ferrari design and the FIAT derivative. My reference for all this comes from Dante Giacosa of FIAT fame and his diagrams of the F2 engine look nothing like the production engines/ I particularly liked the strange 2 cylinder engine Ferrari produced for tight twisty circuits, the idea behind that one was that seeing that 4 cyl engines were good for torque he extrapolated that 2 cyls would be even better, however the vibration from the engine was so bad that he canned it. As to Lampredi and the liners screwed into the cyl head, I think the theory behind it is solid but the maintenance could be a nightmare. I see a lot of fiat ideas in the 308 heads as they seem very much like 124 sport heads X2 with the same bucket and shim method of gaping the valves plus similar cambelts. The 2300S was the first car Lampredi worked on after leaving Ferrari and a look at the pushrod heads is evidence of his input. This wasa car that developed 150hp from 2.3 lts back in '61 and could run to a genuine 200kph and was easily better than the Merc 190SL which was it's direct competition in it's day (it's been clocked at 237kph by the HWP at Uralla ) The Fiat/Ferrari engine collaboration was designated the 135 project and both Pininfarina and Bertone produced cars , the beautiful two seater roadster by Pinin and the 4 seater by Bertone. Ferrari were suppose to do all the road tests and development of these cars but 2 test drivers from Ferrari were killed in an accident so Navone from FIAT did all the development work on the cars. The crankcase wasn't made of cast iron until 1969 and it was increased from 2000cc to 2400cc. The 130 coupe engine was a total Lampredi design, being a V6 of 3200cc in a 60 degree "V" as opposed to the 'usual' 65 degree "V" for the other "dino" engines, the 130 sedan was a 2800cc engine derived directly from the Ferrari inital effort
back to Alitalia liveries... the 131 Abarth is stunningly tough in the right warpaint http://www.pubblimais.it/131-abarth.htm
nope. but on the theme of awesome colour schemes... you GOTTA see this line-up... http://www.socalx.com/x19/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=1815&fullsize=1
You're quite right, I read Giacosa's explanation in Piero Casucci's book "Dino" last night. However I remain deeply cynical about Italian compliance with homologation rules (which were run by the French!). The 1967 166 F2 engine was developed from the 1961 F1 engine. The need to homologate it came along afterwards and Fiat agreed to build 500 Dino Coupes with 206 engines, of which Dante said in part "It therefore had to be redesigned to reinforce the organs under greatest stress". I would supect that the racing block was not the same as the production version... My earlier comments relate to the Fiat Dino/Ferrari Dino 206 (aluminium) and 246 (iron block) engines, which, as you say, came from Lampredi's rework of the F2 engine and ended up in the Stratos. Putting aside the Ferrari mystique and legend, the production Ferrari Dino was a (successful) attempt to revive the profitability of Ferrari's road car operation after Fiat acquired it. They reduced cost by sharing the engine and pitched the car at a different market segment (the 911) under a different brand. Ferrari badges were added by dealers, not the factory. Interestingly, in the same book, Carlo Chiti is quoted as saying that the 65 degree F1 V6 was slightly imbalanced, but Enzo refused to change it, to differentiate it from its forerunner, the Lancia Aurelia 60 degree V6.
it was an era when the 250GTO got passed under suspicious circumstances previously and Dante handed the engine work over to Lampredi who I'm sure would have changed just about everything including the block wonder if this was more to do with the fact his son and Vittorio Jano worked on the design of the V6 during Dino's illness ? He did have a great impact on Enzo's life
Undoubtedly, Dino was a big believer in the V6 configuration and Enzo was famously stubborn. Its also interesting that the FIA mucked about with the rules so much in the late 50's, politics has always ruled over logic in F1.
not being a mechanical engineer, can anyone explain the difference 5 degrees makes to the "V" in balance ? I'm sure it has to do with the harmonics but at what revs does this become a problem ? I know Mitsubishi put huge counterbalances on the 2.6 engine to "fix" the vibration problem on the "large four" so surely with all the talent Ferrari had they could have overcome the 'imbalance' , as Carlo Chiti called it in the 65 degree engine ?
A 60 degree vee is naturally balanced because the mass of each piston matches a firing point in each crankshaft rotation. When the force created by the moving piston is mis-matched from the firing point, you get primary vibration, which increases stress elsewhere, including the driver. A small capacity F1 engine needed to rev to 11000rpm. Balance shafts increase inertia = reduce response = all too hard. The 65 degree thing was not clever. Chiti built a 120 degree V6 which worked better and ran for the balance of the 61 season. The 65 degree motor only won one F1 race and went on to sports car racing use.
thanks Ian, but I don't believe Jano would have been for 65 degrees, he was too brilliant an engineer not to have balance as a primary goal, so who would have been for it ? Enzo , just to be different ?
Here's just a pic of the 24v Stratos v6 to add to the discussion. These came along late in the grp 4 development and some (12v & 24v) were turbocharged. [Off topic] Also a pic for Ash of a x19 abarth engine-which he probably already has anyway! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Site on the conversion of a std Stratos to group 4 specifications. http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Lancia/Stratos2.html
im sure no body actually thaught that somebody would be silly enough to do it but here it is. this is one of the most productive things ive done on my week off of work. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
ha ha you idiot!!! I printed some out for my boy to practice his scissor technique.... but you've gone just a little (nerdy) bit further!!! well done! Now you need another in Alitalia colours and a gravel scene.... ps... keep it away from the pup! pps... you're loaded... you can afford bananas
you're such a loser! You just got back from a 2 month holiday and now you have another week off, you're boss must be loving you!
Check out the appalling build quality on the bodywork! http://www.rallycars.com/_cgi-bin/show-Lancia.cgi?156
