328 Wheels (and snow tires) on 400i | FerrariChat

328 Wheels (and snow tires) on 400i

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by aleventhal, Dec 20, 2005.

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  1. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    #1 aleventhal, Dec 20, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Several people asked that I updated the board with my attempt to replace the TRX wheels and tires on my 400i, so here it goes. I had been told that 308qv wheels would fit with a spacer on a 400, but the real ones are unobtainable and I have heard mixed reviews of the repros, so I decided that 328 wheels, as being virtually the same as 308qv wheels would likely work.

    I bought the 328 wheels from Ferrari of the UK - 4 genuine, new Ferrari wheels, much lighter than the repro 308 wheels, were shipped to my door in NY - with shipping and import dutys they were still CHEAPER than the repro wheels here in the US. I bought the necessary 15MM spacers from the Ferrari Parts Sex Change ( www.ferraripartsexchange.com ). Why you would want to change the sex of these parts is beyond me, as the spacers clearly need to be female.

    I had bridgestone blizzaks mounted on the 16" 328 wheels - but summer tires would also fit fine. 235/60-16 is about 1% larger rolling diameter than the stock TRX, while 245/50-16 is about 3% smaller. Either will work fine, and my suggestion would be to see which way your speedo is off and choose accordingly to make up some of the error. Either way, it is said that tire manufacturing tolerances are up to 10% so these diffs are statistically meaningless.

    First step in mounting the 328 wheels is attaching the spacers. To do this, you need to remove the little pins that hold the rotor on, put the spacer on, and then replace the pins - not hard - see pic 1.

    Once the spacers are on, the 328 wheels mount on the rear with the original wheel bolts no probelm, the offset (with spacer) and centerline are identical to stock, and there is no rubbing whatsoever - see pic 2

    On the front, the original wheel bolts also work fine, but the huge 400 dust cap will not fit through the center bore hole in the wheel. I popped the dust cap off the hub, and then the wheel fit right on - but this left the wheel bearings exposed to the elements. My hope was that the horsie cap would provide enough protection, but it turns out the spindle / cotter pin bearing thingy extends to car out to allow the cap to fit. :( See pic 3 and 4

    So, the long and the short of it is that the the 328 wheels fit, the offset is right, nothing rubs, and the car drives GREAT - and the blizzaks make a night and day difference in the snow - BUT - the front wheel bearings are currently exposed to the elements and will die an early death if left that way for long. The solution is to make a small adapter that fits into the hole in the wheel where the horsie cap would normally goes, seals against the spindle on the back side to protect the bearings as teh dust cap did, and allows for fitment of the stock horsie cap on the front side - this can be made pretty easily on a CNC machine, and my mechanic is working on fabbing it up as we speak - it will be made in aluminum and will look stock when done. Once the first one is done, they could also be made for anyone else who wanted one. The repro qv wheels (i am told - can not verify) do not have this issue as the centers are raised in this area - but i am willing to do this in order to have lighter, stronger, genuine ferrari wheels - and I thought other fchatters might want to know what i had learned - hope it is not a waste of bandwidth.

    Alex

    Dino #10704
    365bb #18265
    400i #049773
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  2. tvu

    tvu Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 13, 2004
    1,310
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    Trieu
    Definitely not a waste of bandwidth. That's awesome that you are going to great lengths to make it a daily driver. Thanks for the info & pictures.
     
  3. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
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    Russ Turner
    This is fabulous information - great work!
    Great car!
     
  4. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 5, 2002
    8,475
    Alex,

    Great thread. I fitted 328 wheels to my 308 GT4, and had similar issues. My mechanic machined the original dust cap and spindle so that it would fit with the wheel.

    I posted about it in this thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11452&highlight=328+wheels+hub

    From your photos, it looks like there isn't much room to play, but if I recall correctly, there wasn't too much room on the GT4 either.

    Also, that thread that I linked had some other alternatives (i.e. machine a raised ring for the cap to fit).

    Hope this helps.

    Dom
     
  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,097
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    Newman
    Why wouldnt you use factory 15" 400 rims instead? I often wondered about the 15" rims on a 308 to upgrade from the 14's and they look nice and fat.
     
  6. BigAl

    BigAl F1 Veteran

    Mar 17, 2002
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    GSgt Hartman
    thnx for the update and def NOT a waste of bandwidth!

    So.....what's wrong with repro 16" wheels? I was thinking those when the rubber wears out on my 390s.
     
  7. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
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    Hahahaa, you big goof.
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Newman
    BigAl, the repops are good for snow tires only, they suck the big one otherwise.
     
  9. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    A good question! My original plan WAS to use the factory 15" rims. There were two things that stopped me. The first was that the appropriate tire size for those rims (215/70-15 as stock on 400 carb) is WAY narrower and taller than either the stock trx at 240/55-415 or the appropriate size (235/60 or 245/50) on the 16" rim, and I feared this would adversely affect handling. The second is that there is no decent, speed rated rubber in high perf or snow tires in the original size or any properly swappable size for the 15" rims (Michelin XWX or Pirrelli "touring" tires are the only choice for summer, and there is NO choice for winter).

    As an aside, the 15" 400 rims prolly will not work on a 308, as they have about 15MM less positive offset, and will therefore stick out of the fender like a low rider - of course, if you like that look, go for it. :)

    Alex
     
  10. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    My biggest quantifiable complaint about the repops is that they are WAY heavier than the original 308 or 328 wheels - to the tune of several pounds per wheel. As this is unsprung weight, I found this very undersireable - particularly as they are MORE expensive than REAL 328 wheels.

    Additionally, I have heard several complaints on this board of difficulty with balancing the repops, perhaps due to a hub adapter that does not always come with the wheels - so, this plus getting a heavier, fake wheel, for more moeny, turned me off to them.

    Of course, YMMV

    Alex
     
  11. AMA328

    AMA328 F1 Rookie

    Nov 12, 2002
    2,518
    ABQ-67me68-OKC :)
    Good work...you hit on something I've wondered about for some time, as I'd eventually like to pick up a 400 or 412...
    couple questions, though:

    * any chance the later, ABS 328 wheels might work better,
    as far as the bearing cap goes? The ABS wheels bulge out more.

    * ideas as to whether the same approach you took will work on a 412? If I recall correctly, some of the brochures/literature of the time quote TRX for early 412s, but it appears Ferrari switched to a 16"" wheel with Goodyears somewhere during the run. Some brochures list both types of wheels as options.
     
  12. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    To answer your questions:

    * no - the 328 ABS wheels are not compatible with a 400i - the offset is WAY wrong.

    * A 412 is a MUCH easier situation. It is an ABS car and any of the ABS wheels shoudl work fine - 328 abs, any mondial, 348/355/360 should all bolt right on - although I stress SHOULD - I have not DONE it.

    Alex
     
  13. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
    6,687
    North shore, MA
    Full Name:
    THE Birdman
    I feel that I must set the record straight here. I don't know what experience Newman has to say that they "suck the big one," but here is my experience.

    I have a set on my 308 that I got specifically because I do not like the angular look of the 328 wheels on a 308 and I wanted a QV wheel. The real ones are too expensive and hard to find. So I got the repros. I did weigh mine. The reproduction wheels (aluminum) weigh a little more than the 14" magnesium wheels. But once mounted with a modern 16" tire, the repros weigh almost exactly the same as a 14" OEM wheel with an XWX tire (the XWX's are heavy!). So the unsprung weight is exactly CORRECT for the suspension of the car. (As you know, a change in the unsprung weight in EITHER direction up or down, adversely affects the ride without a corresponding change in spring/damping rate).

    Yes, you need the hubcentric rings for the front. With them, they ride smooth as glass. They are supposed to have them. If you get a set without them, you need to call the place you bought them and tell them you were missing them and get them.

    These wheels look right on a 308, they ride great, they have the correct offset, they balance perfectly, they are the right weight WITH TIRE for your suspension system and you don't have to mess with dust caps not working like a 328 wheel. I bolted mine on and I didn't worry about having to fabricate something to keep the bearings from disintegrating. And I got mine on sale for $1200 for the set plus shipping, which was cheaper than 328 wheels, so it was a no brainer.

    I did a thread talking about the huncentric rings and weights in Tech Q&A if you do a search. If you don't get the rings, you will think that the wheels aren't balanced right. The problem is that the U.S. importer did not realize they were supposed to be giving out the rings with the wheels and if the customer didn't know either, it created some problems, so the wheels got a bad rap. They are very nice wheels and reasonably priced alternative to real and rare (i.e. expensive) QV wheels. I know at least half a dozen Fchatters that have them and all like them.

    Birdman
     
  14. slewman

    slewman Karting

    May 4, 2004
    158
    ALEX

    Are you running (4) 8x16 wheels with the 235/60-16 tires ?
     
  15. BigAl

    BigAl F1 Veteran

    Mar 17, 2002
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    Full Name:
    GSgt Hartman
    thnx for the info Bird!
     
  16. jonathan70

    jonathan70 Rookie

    Feb 25, 2005
    22
    Alex -

    The planets are aligning... ever consider trying your 400 in ice racing ? There is an organization (AMEC - www.icerace.com) that runs events in your area of NY. They have Blizzaks as their "official" non-studded tire and they are having a time-trial event on February 11th at Round Lake NY (actually ON Round Lake).

    I raced a RWD mini-stock (mustang) on the ice in 1999 and they never got over the fact that I was crazy/stupid enough to even try it. On slicks ! No windows, no heater, no brains...

    Since then, they have added time trial events for the more intelligent (lol) and these time-trial events are very "nice-car friendly", as they only allow two or three cars out on the track at a time. The typical track length is 1-1.5 miles and the cars are staggered so that contact is non-existent. You cannot even see another car while you make your laps. And I actually time-trialed my C230K Mercedes a few years ago in their street tire class - and got my butt kicked by an AWD Porsche 9XX.

    The whole AMEC is really low key. Mike Lamm or Dave Burham are stand-up guys and I'm sure they'd love to see a Ferrari in their field.

    FYI - The AMEC group also sponsors a track day at Lime Rock each year - so it is a good group to know, even if a ride on a lake isn't included in your winter plans.
     
  17. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    Actually, I am running 4 FRONTS, that is 4 7x16. You are right that I chose four the same size, as I did not want staggered wheels since 400s do not use staggered tires and i wanted to be able to rotate. I chose the 7s (fronts) instead of the 8s (rears) because the original TRX wheels were (basically) 7 inches wide, and I was unsure if the 8s would rub in front. The fact that the 7s are also slightly lighter and cheaper is not a bad thing either!

    Alex
     
  18. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    I would LOVE to take the 400i ice racing - what a story that would be! I know exactly where round lake is - not too far away to do it - I will look into this, and thanks VERY much for the heads up - this will be awesome!

    Alex
     
  19. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
    Owner

    Apr 26, 2005
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    in a house
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    John
    Alex!
    If you do it, Please be sure to get some pictures of your car flying across the ice!
     
  20. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
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    The Bad Guy
    HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

    You are a MAD MAN Alex. I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

    You must get pics of this insanity when you take the Ferrari ice racing.
     
  21. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2005
    654
    Millbrook, NY
    Full Name:
    Alexander Leventhal
    Jonathan:

    I checked out the website and I definetely want to do this. I can not figure out what class the 400 would go in, or how they determine its weight (it seems there is a weight limit) - do you know? Or do you know who I would contact and how to get signed up? PM me is you would like to save bandwidth on the board, and THANKS!!! This will be fun!

    Alex
     

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