Tiger Woods, maybe......Jordan and Ali.....you're smoking something. Let me see you go 15 rounds with Frazier or score 42 points with a stomach virus, then we'll discuss mental strength. Forza, Cavallini
First off: Golf = a game, not a sport. Racing is a sport but it's one of those sports with a gray area because, racing, in and of itself, won't keep you fit. Sports like basketball, tennis, tri-athletes, weightlifting, etc. keep you fit on account of you doing them; the training keeps F1 drivers fit, not the driving. In racing, much of the performance is related to the machine; sure, the driver can extract and overdrive car, but Schumi in a Minardi isn't going to win races simply because of his talent. Therefore, in my mind, sports are those activities which rely on a marriage of mental stamina and superior physical condition and are a direct result of both factors being optimal; e.g., Armstrong, and winning tri-athlete, etc. If the difference between winning and losing come down to your BODY then you're an athlete. You could argue this with motorcycling because it's much more physical than driving a car. I'm much more inclined to say that a MotoGP rider is more of an athlete than an F1 driver. In the end, I don't believe drivers are athletes per se; rather, they're athletically trained drivers.
I think one would have to put decathaletes (sp?) somewhere high on that list. Granted, the decathalon is somewhat of a "niche" event, which most people only hear about for a few days during the Olympics. But it involves the demonstration of the most different kinds of physical abilities.
IMHO, Olympic freestyle wrestlers are the best athletes. The Schumi, Jordan, etc. equivalent was Dan Gable. Undefeated in High School. Lost one match in college (his last one). Won the gold medal in the '72 Olympics - without giving up a single point! Coached the Iowa Hawkeyes to 10 straight national championships. Complete dominance in every sense of the word.
This was a fascinating thread to me, and I hope you don't mind my chiming in. The statement that performance is mostly related to the machine and not to the driver in F1 (or other types of racing) is, in my opinion, only true to an extent. I say this simply because of the amount of strain that pulling G-forces takes on your body and the amount of physical training required to take the G's repeatedly without getting tired. USAF general Chuck Yeager described combat flying in the WW2 days as being very physical- there were no anti-G suits or hydraulically boosted controls. The pilots were all in good shape; near the end of a dogfight he maintained that you could see that your enemy was tired because they weren't pushing the airplane to the limits of its potential anymore. Consequently, if you got too tired in a dogfight you could get killed because you couldn't turn steeply enough, climb sharply enough, etc. My physique is far from athletic, and I can see this even in kart racing. After 15 laps or so, I sometimes start to think "maybe I won't take this turn quite as hard as I did for the last 14 laps- after all, my arms are tired and my neck is getting sore". This must be a hundred times worse in a 77-lap F1 race, with 4-G turns and no rest- ever. It my opinion, is entirely possible that the split-second difference between winning and losing could be gained or given up by means of physical conditioning in an F1 race. I believe that those guys are athletes in every sense of the word. -Gio P
Very, very true. Wrestling must be the toughest, equalled perhaps by boxing. Dan Gable must be the greatest American athlete of all-time because he was a champion at EVERY- player and coach- in arguably the toughest sport. 15 national championships overall at Iowa and an Olympic Gold Medal! I didn't realize he was so completely dominant until I saw a Sportscentury about the best coaches and he was number 15 or something ridiculous like that. He won 15 national championships and he's ranked below Jimmy Johnson, Pat Summit and Mike Krzyzewski (SP). 15 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS and he's not the greatest coach? Someone at ESPN is smoking something... Forza, Cavallini
I agree with Giovanni. It seems that some of you consider F1-driving to be the same as driving any other car fast at a track. It´s very different. F1-drivers has to be in very good shape to be able to cope with cornering at around 4 g´s and braking at almost 5 g´s. In a race that lasts about one and a half hours this means extreme strain on the body, especially in such weather-conditions as in Bahrain.
Cavallini, I think the only guy that is smoking something is you. You obviously don't know about physical and mental aspect an F1 driver endures. We can all speculate here, but we really don't know unless we race one. I agree with Mr. Janne I think the majority of us think racing an F1 car is the same as racing a sportscar or anything else. Look at Giovanni's response and you will know what an F1 racer has to deal with. Have you ever felt 4 g's or even negative 4 Gs. Have you raced a car for 80 laps pulling negative and postive 4 Gs for about more than half a lap. Do you know what that does to your body. Even jet fighters pilots don't experience G forces for that long. At least in Football, Basketball and Boxing you have time to rest and think. In F1 have you ever seen any of the cars pull over so they can take a break and change drivers? I race shifter karts myself and all the training I do such as boxing, running, swimming and weight lifting do help, but not as much as me driving laps. Doing laps in my kart does condition my body for other sports. F1 drivers still use them as a tool to keep their reflexes fast and body condition.
Are fighter pilots athletes? I think most would say they are not. Does that mean they are not athletic? Absoulutely not. What it means is that, while they are athletic, what they do is not considered a sport. Therefore, they are not "athletes." I feel much the same about motorsports. Drivers are not athletes in the traditional sense, that can be compared to people like Jordan or Ali. Motorsports, because of their mechanical nature, are different. They are a class by themselves. Now, in that class, I would say Schumi is the best. If you truly want to compare people from all of these sports the question to ask is: "Who is the best competitor?" Schumi is clearly up there. As is Jordan, Ali, Lance, and Pele. Also, how about someone like Bobby Fischer?
good point golf does not at all require mental conditioning, dufus![/QUOTE] DOCDAVID: You must be a golfer. From your response, golf obviously does not require any mental conditioning. Just the desire to get to the 19th hole. Thanks for proving my point about golf.
But F1 is a sport. Maybe not in the US but internationally. So therefore F1 drivers are athletes. Otherwise Micheal Schumacher would have not won the Laures World Sporstmen award in 2004 and 2002. Nominated again for 05. You say the way Schumi should be compared is by who is the best competitor? But I would think this is one of the attributes of an athlete.
I love Schumi and lots of other athletes. I have played many many sports over theyears competitively and none even holds a candle to being a Gymnast. That is by far the most challenging sport in the world. Most athletic magazines that rank sports rank male gymnasts as the best athletes in the world. Just think about other sports. Most sports can be played into your older years. Not gymnastics though. You never see gymansts over the age of about 30. You haveto be in phenominal condition just to do the easiets tricks. Just to do a back flip, an tron cross or a handstand requires more than the average athelete in any sport has in them. ANd that really is the basics. I love to play other sports, mostly because they are easy as I have gotten older.
Yes, F1 is a sport. It is a motorsport. For me, that makes it seperate from traditional sports. When I say that, I am not trying to diminish motorsports, I am just saying they are different. For that reason, I don't think you can compare drivers to traditional athletes. I also don't think you can compare athletes from different sports against each other. Requirements are too different. As great of a cyclist as Armstrong is, does he have any chance against Tiger on a golf course? Does Tiger have any chance in a bike race? Gymnasts might be great all around athletes but if you put them out with big wave surfers in Hawaii or California they are going to have problems. No mater how you look at it, the requirements for different sports are too different to be able to compare them. In my eyes, the one constant for all sports, including motorsports, is someones ability as a competitor. When the situation is stacked against them, how do they react? Do they fold and go home, or do they keep fighting, looking for some way out? That is why I said these very different types of people can be compared as competitors.
Again, I don't doubt the tremendous strains F1 and other high-level driving demand, but my point is not about the difficulties of the sport. My point is how you define the word "athlete." I'm sure the strains and stresses that air force and navy pilots handle are similar to those encountered by F1 drivers but we don't call them athletes. Perhaps your thread should have called F1 driving the most demanding sport. But to call an F1 driver the greatest athlete, to me, is a very different equation. As I clearly explained and defined earlier, the word Athlete means something entirely different to me, especially at the level of a Pele, Jordan, Ali, Jerry Rice, Lance Armstrong, Dan Gable et al. Clearly, you misread and misunderstood my point. Perhaps smoke was in your eyes.... Forza, Cavallini
Is Michael Schumacher the "Best Athlete" - NO However, Michael is the best physically and mentally conditioned race car driver on the planet (that includes all motor sports) and argueable the best physically and mentally conditioned racer of all time. I would find it hard to believe the ***io would survive a modern day F1 race (let alone fit into the car), and I doubt even Clarke or G. Villeneuve could withstand the G Forces and pressures of a modern F1 car. Comparing Micheal to other athletes is really not fair. I doubt he could survive very long in a boxing match, go one on one with Michael Jordan, take any money from Tiger Woods, or climb the Alps with Armstrong. However none of those top athletes could compete in a race car with Michael. All great competitors have three things in common: 1. They are at the top of their sport in terms of mental preparation. 2. They are at the top of their sport physically. 3. They are able to improve everyone around them to be better - thier teammates and competition. So I would conclude by saying Michael Schumacher may be the toughest competitor in modern sports.
I love how these discussions play out. At least when we try to discuss all-time greatest drivers, there is some relevance. But "Best Athlete" is as pointless as the new international drivers' ranking by Stats Inc. Face it--there are golfers today who are physically fitter than race car drivers from not-too-distant seasons. The overall level of fitness in all sports has increased so much and become so specified that it's an insult to any of them to suggest their's is beneath another. And why should mental fitness not classify as highly as physical toughness? And if physical fitness is all-important, then how so? Total, brute strength, like a weight lifter? Endurance, like a marathoner? Or something in between, like a decathlete? To crown someone "Best Athlete" requires us to neglect most of what goes into excelling at a sport and treat it more as "Most Successful in His/Her Sport".
I remember watching this on CBS sports back in 2003. It was called to Super Star competition. They have it every year and invite all types of sportsmen from different sports such as football, basketball, skiing and swimming. In 2003 Thomas Schetcker competed and basically dominated all events until the last one where he got disqualified and was edge by Jeremey Bloom(US mogul silver medalist and College Football player) with only one point. Bloom won it because he got to compete in the last event whereas Thomas Schetcker didn't. I remember that the other competitors were amazed that a race car driver was beating other athlete's. They said Thomas Schetcker was the exception. I have posted a link to a website which has a story on the event. I would think after looking at this, race drivers would be considered as athlete's http://www.firsttracksonline.com/news/stories/105320050485930.shtm Bloom Wins SuperStars in Jamaica Colorado Springs, CO (Saturday, May 17, 2003) - Dual moguls World Champion Jeremy Bloom (Loveland, CO) made it two straight SuperStars victories for U.S. Ski Team athletes this spring in the made-for-TV competition but he says he didn't get the extra boost Bode Miller (Franconia, NH) got a year ago. Athletes including eight National Football League players (Ahman Green, Will Allen, Charlie Garner, Super Bowl MVP Deter Jackson, among others), Olympic swimmer Ed Moses and race car driver Thomas Scheckter must compete in six of 10 events. Bloom, 21, the 2002 World Cup moguls champ who was duals gold medalist and moguls silver medalist at the 2003 World Championships at Utah's Deer Valley Resort, won the half-mile run and 100-yard dash; he also finished second in kayaking, swimming and the bike race after being disqualified in his first event, the rock climb. "I was too amped [in the rock climb]. I was ready to go too fast, do too much," he explained, partway through a six-week individual training program at the U.S. Olympic Training Center. "But I won the 100-yard yards, not meters in 9.4 seconds, which is only .2 off the record, so I was really pleased with that." Miller and ex-Olympic moguls champ Jonny Moseley (Tiburoin, CA) finished 1-2 in the two-day 2002 SuperStars competition at Montego Bay, Jamaica. Miller, who was coming off a season with two Olympic medals and four World Cup wins, clinched the '02 title when he vaulted over the wooden wall that starts the traditional final event, the obstacle course; while most athletes use a running start to get high on the wall and then clamber over the top, Miller figured out that by using the spikes and his natural athletic ability, he could get a quick toehold high on the wall that would springboard him to victory and he did just that. He bounded over, placing just one foot on the wall as he grabbed the top and was gone in a flash, easily defeating linebacker Lavarr Arrington. (Miller was unable to defend his title when the event was moved up while he still was racing in Europe.) "But Bode had track spikes when he went over the wall," Bloom laughed during a break in conditioning training. "He had the spikes from the 100-yard dash and he was wearing those, so he went up and over. He was almost disqualified...and this year we couldn't use spikes." Bloom a college freshman All-America football selection after a season in which he turned a pass reception into the University of Colorado's longest TD pass play (94 yards) and was one of the nation's top punter returners figured out he needed to finish at least fourth in the obstacle run to win. He finished fourth, edging Scheckter by one point for the win; to maintain his NCAA football eligibility, Bloom said he planned to give his prize money for winning to help build a Little League field in his hometown. "It was a great. There were a lot of guys I look up to in the NFL there, and one of the best parts was talking to them and getting some tips and hints, which should help me improve my football skills," he said. Because he was not enrolled in classes this spring, Bloom could not participate in spring drills with the football team; he had a "great" season playing in Division I football, he said, but he hasn't decided whether to return to CU for a second season. Bloom was especially happy with knocking off Scheckter, who said he had moved to Florida a month ahead of the competition, hired a personal trainer and worked to get in good shape. "Scheckter was on a mission, no question," Bloom said. "We all wanted to win, of course, but he really was on a mission." The SuperStars show is expected to be re-broadcast sometime this summer on CBS. Check local listings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did you first arrive at First Tracks!! Online by directly accessing this story? If so, click here to access the entirety of First Tracks!! Online.
Precisely. And I would add that at this level of achievement arguing over who is the greatest is absurd. They are all masters of their sports and I would put Schumacher in the same league as Dan Gable, Jordan, Armstrong, Ali, Sampras and a handful of football players as the toughest competitors. The most talented, however, I would have to say are Pele and Bo Jackson. Forza, Cavallini
Michael is very fit, no doubt, but I would not call him the world's best athlete. I used to train at the USOTC and represented my country many times in international competition, i.e. World Cups, World Championships, etc. so I have first hand knowledge of the testing different guys do and what their comparative numbers are. The best athletes in the world are cross country skate skiers. And the fittest of those are biathletes. They have to get their heart rates from 190+ bpm to under 60 bpm in a few seconds so that they can hit their targets. The training they do is phenomenal. Also up there are speed skaters and cyclists. A race car driver would be great in a competition that included a varied slew of events because to be fit in a race car, it's necessary to train many different muscles. However, if you give MS a VO2 max test (measure of aerobic efficiency and fitness) and then give a mediocre Olympic skate skier the same test, the skate skier's numbers would crush MS's. If you make them run 5 miles, he would crush MS. If you make them squat 300 lbs, the most time, he would crush MS. In my eyes, he is a super fit individual but not the best athlete in the world. FWIW, I rode bikes with a certain Brazilian race car driver once and he couldn't keep up any time the pace escalated to a competitive level.
The bottom line is we don't know if Schumacher is the best athlete or even is at the same level such as Ali, Jordan and Pele. Why, because none of us have raced or even driven an F1 car. Yeah some of us have raced cars but it is totally different. I am sure alot of us have played football, basketball, baseball, golf, running, bicycling, skating, skiing, boxing and etc. Therefore we know what a top athlete in their sport goes through physcially and mentally. But in an F1 car we don't. So until one of us actually race an F1 car, I don't think it is fair for us to say if Schumacher is a top athlete or not.
I always thought cross country skiers were the most fit athletes. I define fit as having the highest V02 max, and i think elite cross country skiers tended to have the highest, with distance runners, rowers, swimmers and cyclists almost equal or trailing not far behind. As for best athlete, i think a lot more comes into the equation than just the physiology that you are born with.
I think it comes down to - Level of skill - Mental toughness - Physical fitness / abilities. It would be very rare to find an athlete or sportsman or whatever that is extroadinary in all of these areas. Take tiger woods, I would say he is exceptional in the areas of mental toughness and skill, but as a golfer he will never be (compared to other athletes) exceptionally fit or athletic. Then take Lance Armstrong, he has the mental toughness, and fitness, but then skillwise (comparable to other athletes) he is not at the same skill level (as much skill as there is in competitive cycling, i don't think it compares to soccer and other sports) Therefore, as others have mentioned, I think it comes down to "fighting" sports. Fighters have to be in peak physical condition. They have to mentally tough, and they have to be skilled. Most people would say Ali, but Ali would get manhandled by a local jui jitsu instructor in a no holds barred fight. So I think the UFC / Pride / K1 fighters are the ultimate athletes. At first the sport seems barbaric, but after a while you really begin to appreciate the skill, mental strength, and fitness these guys have. Just my 2 cents.
We were not discussing my mental strength. Michael Schumacher's metal strength is clearly shown through his persistence and motivation. There were several races in his early years at Ferrari when it seemed pretty pointless to even take the car out of the pits to start the race. Under mounting pressure from media, fans and from within the team, Michael would go out and push for points and podium places. Mental strength does not neccesarily mean overcoming physical handicap like stomach virus or 15 rounds with Fraizer. Mental strength is shown when a person is told day in and day out for 12 straight months that his car and team are incapable of winning. Silencing the critics and keeping motivation high in desperate times. That shows mental strength. Overcoming a stomach virus or taking a beating for 15 rounds shows physical ability, not mental strength!
