Is 812 chassis that soft? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Is 812 chassis that soft?

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by RallyLT, Mar 12, 2021.

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  1. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    If the rear of the car floats, that's a pretty clear indication that it needs some more toe. Adding just 2-3 minutes per side can make a big difference in straight line stability.
     
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  2. SeattleStew

    SeattleStew Formula Junior
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    Swapped to the Michelin MPS4S for the summer, and what a difference. Certainly a lot better than the Pirelli tires, and more grip than the Continental all seasons.

    I’ve got an appointment to get novitec springs installed in 2 weeks as well as an alignment. Looking forward to seeing how it performs in the corners after.
     
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  3. Ducati

    Ducati Formula Junior

    Jan 23, 2004
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    Tires, Tires, Tires. I have an F12 along with several mid engine V8 Ferrari's and I really did not like the F12 when I picked it up. I loved the power but the car made me nervous. I waited way to long and then with a wheel spin and rear wheel hopping problem on the F12 I finally trashed the original Pirelli tires ( I hate to throw away tires with that much tread remaining but...) The Michelin tires transformed the car. So much better. I ask myself why would Ferrari do that to me? I assume they think we are all going to just tootle around on the roads with a 12 cylinder front engine car. I am a disciple now for tire conversions. Just FYI.
     
  4. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    I had exact same experience with my F12.
     
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  5. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    I think there are currently two very simple reasons. The first is F1. The other is the fact that Pirelli is Italian.

    Funny thing is how few Ferraris run their best Fiorano times with Pirellis, not to mention the fact that the F1 drivers call the Pirelli tyres for crap.

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  6. Dane100

    Dane100 Rookie

    May 21, 2018
    48
    Coming from Lambos and Porsche my first experience with 812 was not a good one. I thought the car was unstable and I did feel quite a bit of body roll and the suspension is definitely a lot softer than Lambos. I was nervous the first few times as the steering is also very sensitive and felt like car was moving from side to side around the corners.
    812 Superfast is a car that you have to drive a few times to completely understand and respect it. You cannot push this car like an Aventador or a Turbo S. 812 likes to scare you the first few times especially if you push it however once you drive it a few times you understand what not to do and it becomes a lot more enjoyable.
    I now have the car for few months and am a lot more confident pushing it. I have also change the tires to Michelin pilot sport 4s and have lowered it on factory springs which have transformed the ride. I love driving my 812 but it is a different type of experience compared to a mid engine sports car.
     
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  7. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    After you get comfortable with the 812 try an F12. Keep a spare set of shorts on hand. These mid-front Ferraris have extreme power and need much more finesse to tame and drive without white knuckles. Lowering on specific springs (Novitec) and calibrating w/corner balancing will remove excessive roll and dial in the experience much better with little noticeable impact to road comfort while looking excellent. Just don't over do it.
     
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  8. SeattleStew

    SeattleStew Formula Junior
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    MP4S tires and novitec springs make a world of difference to the handling characteristics. I also think the car rides better on the novitec springs than stock. Only downside is you will scrape the front if you don’t have a front lift, and you will scrape on severe road undulations. I think it’s well worth swapping springs though, night and day difference
     
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  9. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    I am satisfied with the standard PZeros and complete factory setup. It took some time to adjust from the 488 Spider to this but I drive it plenty hard in corners and it sticks pretty well. I drove one at COTA and it was just as aggressive through the technical parts and I got to 170 on the back stretch. The car is a beast but I only got to drive 4 laps in it and the best one was 2:42 as compared to 2:38 for my fastest with the F8. I had a lot more laps on the F8 and I think I would have done just as well driving the 812 with more tries.
     
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  10. CPBTX

    CPBTX Rookie

    Mar 8, 2019
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    Me too.
     
  11. Frank_C

    Frank_C F1 Rookie
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    #36 Frank_C, Jul 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021

    I’ve driven the F12 and 812 around COTA quite a bit in addition to my dot 1 GT3 RS.

    The standard P Zeros are crap. The tread is too deep, they do not handle heat well with pressures all over the place and they need to be bled quite a bit. Get them hot and you’re dead- you can feel the tarmac just ripping the tread right off the tires. The TDF PZC4 Corsas are a much better track tire. Bleed them once and your done and can forget about them. Pressures stay constant and you can then use your temp sensors to monitor your laps. I don’t know how the 4S are on track all I know is that cup 2s need heat and can be scary on the street when cold.

    The F12 is soft. Very soft. In addition to body roll it reallybdives under braking. The 812 is much better- it still has some roll but Ferrari have fixed the dive. (To be fair even the F8 has quite a bit of roll in it- haven’t driven in one but it is quite noticeable driving behind one.)

    The biggest difference between the F12 and the 812 is the RWS. You can tuck in the front of the F12 when you breathe the throttle, but the car still pushes a bit. The 812 on the other hand has a much livelier rear and can wiggle its ass nicely in the turns. Throttle steers like a dream. Adding Novitec springs stiffen up the rear quite nicely and dials out any bit of understeer. One can breathe and rotate the car easily under throttle and then plant it and just power that front around.

    The 812 is an unbelievably Superfastcar straight from the factory. Stiffen up the springs and you’ve got a beast. Yeah the RS is friggin planted -> Wing…. But the 812 is not just torque and speed. Yes you are very much weight limited but still the SF can hang in the turns. I run similar times around COTA albeit done differently 2:28.6 in the 812 and 2:28.0 in the RS last time out at COTA in December.


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  12. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Interested if you tried the F12 with Novitec springs with calibration and how it compared to 812 with same setup. Thanks.
     
  13. Frank_C

    Frank_C F1 Rookie
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    #38 Frank_C, Jul 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
    No have not.

    I would think it would help out immensely. I believe Anders has said as much: if not posted here in these forums, in my correspondence with him- a very knowledgeable chap!

    I thought the F12 would have been my swan song Ferrari til I took it on the track. Then I wanted more. After my second track day with it I bought my RS and decided to have an 812 built.

    Around COTA and MSR Houston the F12 was decent in the curves (for a heavy car) but really showed its weight. An absolute blast on the throttle just leaping from corner to corner in the short chutes and well balanced in long high speed corners despite no wing. But in the real twisties you were really just throwing weight around and with no recovery if you got it wrong. And all that vertical movement in the chassis meant slower weight transfer. Braking points about 50- 75m more than the RS (cup 2s) on the straights (174 vs 153 mph + weight at COTA). Now that was with OEM Pirellis. The 812 is good for 4 mph more and only gives up 25-30 m on the straights with the Corsas.

    Again I can’t emphasize enough the RWS on the 812. As anyone who drives 911s will tell you the more you hang out the rear, the faster you go around track. The RWS and suspension makes the 812’s rear just want to dance. More precise, no roll (relative to the F12) with quicker direction changes and you can just flat out rotate the car. Putting on the Novitecs and lowering it brings the 812 to the next level.

    And when lowered, the stance is how it should have left the factory (mine is dropped 1.25” all around). Only bad thing is wheels are sucked in and it needs spacers. I’m looking at getting some wheels built with extra offset in lieu of spacers.

    But back to the original question. Yes the 812 is a sports car and not a purpose built track car like the GT3s and the chassis is simply not as stiff. But adding the Novitecs are like Viagra for the track +/- lowering it really drops seconds off lap times once you ditch the OEM Pirellis.

    PS my RS guy is a former racer & crew chief and is talking with the AP Racing guys on a better brake solution for the 812 on track. I’ll keep all y’all up to date with that.


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  14. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Great post. Very good to have an experienced driver with suspension knowledge posting on the site. I appreciate it as I'm sure do other members. Sorry you did not have F12 setup same as 812 with MPSS (or MP4) and Novitec and calibration like you did with 812. It takes it to the next level as it does with the 812. They share the same chassis except the RWS which was a good evolution as we would expect with Ferrari on the flagship model of the time. That helps with the weight of these luxury extreme performance cars. The team that did my car race for Porsche so glad I did not have to learn the hard way.

    The other difference between the two is a slightly stiffer anti-roll bar on the 812 which I wanted to install until I read the universal complaint that the 812 rode stiff on the street. I have spacers which widen the track and have benefits for handling and how the rear steps out. If you can do offset rims that's even better but I really like the OEM classic mid-front rim design. They are the heaviest but to me they look the best and lets face it none of these cars are for racing.
     
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  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    A problem with the Pirellis (standard ones on the 812) is the compound they use does not degrade well, instead of wearing smoothly, it comes off in chunks

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    And this causes all sorts of problems, for instance, using tires worn like the above, in the wet, causes the car to feel unsteady as the water pushes around where it shouldn't. And for track driving can cause the car to have unusual slides.

    I have noticed this with other Pirelli sizes on other cars, for instance:

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    So, really, if you use Pirelli's on track, keep an eye on them, they "chunk" and "delaminate" is unexpected ways. Have not seen this with Michelins.
     
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  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Great stuff!

    On the brakes, are you thinking remaining with CCB or going to a slotted (metal) rotor or ?

    And, do you run harnesses in your 812? If so, how did you solve the anchor problem for the shoulder harnesses (as in no where to anchor them)?
     
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  17. Frank_C

    Frank_C F1 Rookie
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    I would go steel, same for the RS. The sprint configuration to handle the heat of the 812. I’m torn on slicks for the RS- can only get better using street tires. I spoke with Dan at Finspeed wheels for the 812 who took pics of the suspension, but have backed off that idea.

    Yeah the harness is an issue for the 812. Doing 170s on the straights is well beyond 3 point belts. But vanity enters into the picture as I will never sell this car. I’m sure I can have something built without perforating the leather.




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