Euro 550 OBD plug . Yes it is there and I have found it. | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Euro 550 OBD plug . Yes it is there and I have found it.

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Robbe, Nov 9, 2020.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Is that for both sides? The manual gives a procedure for checking the output of the throttle position sensors. i.e. between 400 and 600 millivolts on ECU plug pins 44 and 71 with the ignition on. The text mentions a value of 98% for full throttle on the SD tool. It also says that the sensors can be balanced to within a few degrees.

    It does not erase the trims. The 550 has a 5.2 Motronics. The 5.2 holds the data in non-volatile memory. The SD tool may be the only thing which will erase the data.
     
    Robbe likes this.
  2. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    Yesterday evening I looked into both the TPS's. The left ECU (left TPS??) showed a higher max, at around 72 %, starting at 0.8 depressed.
    The left TPS position is easily checked by looking at the throttle cable. It had more slack than I thought was needed.
    So I tightened the cable a bit (the 2 13mm nuts construction) and now the max is 78 when I really floor it, still starting at 0.8%.

    The right side now is around 72 instead of 65 due to the tightening of the cable, but still starting at 0%
    On other cars a TPS has oval slots for the mounting screws, so one can tilt it a bit to a side to adjust the values, but these TPS's seem not to have that.
    .
    Other thing about the TPS, both sides show a nice and smooth graph on the scanner when I slowly press the pedal, no spikes or hiccups. So they seem to react as they should, only if the starting is 0.1V or 0.4V I do not know. I understand that the range should begin at 0.4 - 0.6 volts , up to a max of around 4,1 and higher.
    But I am a bit hesitant to remove the big connection on the ECU and still have ignition on to check that, but if it is necessary I will do so.
    Not being near an SD is indeed limiting what one can scan.

    As both TPS react smoothly to the pedal, and have comparable values in comparable situations, I do not think they are part of this problem, but again, I am not sure.
    The stark hesitation when driving feels as if it is on 6 cylinders for a short time, so a value must really be off when that happens.

    I will check for vacuum leaks. I have already sprayed brake cleaner around the manifold, but no effect. I will try with the smoke machine next.
    But then as well, as far as I understood, vacuum leaks have more effect on idle than on full throttle situations at 3500 rpm.
    And the LTFT did not come down from 16 after 5 minutes at 3500 highway cruising in 4th gear...
    The IAT is showing a correct value on my scanner, as is one Coolant sensor (other is showing -40)

    2 symptoms I just thought of that also occurred:
    - when the hesitation occurs, and I shift up or down, often it is gone for a few moments, it picks up the next gear smoothly. And that points to a TPS or MAF (0% during shifting), right?
    But no strange values of the right TPS during this.
    - I stopped for gas, but the car stalled before I turned off the engine. On 6 cyl, it will not stall, correct? So if one of the fuel pumps temporarely cuts out, it will not stall? (When I collected the car 6 weeks ago, and the new right fuel pump stopped working during the drive home, it did not stall)

    I think I will start with the parts throwing if the smoke turns out no major leak, and the TPS voltage at the pins is good.
    The left tps is cheap, the right not really so at around 350 usd , but I can buy a used one from a fiat/lancia breaker at 75 usd. So at usd 100 I have one part out of the equasion.
    I have no idea otherwise except for the MAF's.
    Other sensors on the car, the 2 underneath at the flywheel, can they have this effect?
     
  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    When disconnecting the big ECU plug, I would use the battery cutoff switch. When the plug has been disconnected, turn the battery back on and then turn on the ignition. Just to clarify, you're not checking the voltage coming from the ECU, you're checking that the throttle position sensor is producing a voltage. The ECU will be completely unpowered and not in the circuit.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If you're getting approximately the same values on each TPS, I guess they should be ok, but I would certainly check the voltages before buying new or second hand ones.

    You may need some fine wire to get proper contact with the sockets.
     
    Robbe likes this.
  4. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    According to the WSM, the throttle potentiometers only register closed and open if your MAFs are working properly. If the MAFs stop working, or you disconnect them, then the ECU reads the throttle position to compensate for the missing MAF. Therefore, I don't think your hesitation problem while at part throttle is likely related to the throttle potentiometers since the computer is not using them at the time. I think a "quick and dirty" test is to disconnect the MAFs and go for a drive, if all seems normal at different throttle positions, then you can at least rule out the throttle potentiometers.


    From the WSM:

    The throttle potentiometer is used by the
    ECU in two different ways:
    1 -Standard operation: the ECU recognizes
    only 2 positions (idling and fully
    open).
    2 - Emergency operation: if the air flow
    meter fails, the ECU uses the signal
    from the potentiometer to determine the
    amount of air drawn in by the engine
    and therefore to calculate the fuel injection
    time. The engine can operate anyway,
    but the failure should be repaired
    as soon as possible.
     
    Qavion, Robbe and hwyman like this.
  5. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    #30 hwyman, Nov 19, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    Sounds like an obvious answer but take the car to a mechanic that knows older Ferraris and has the proper diagnostic computers. I went through this with my Murcielago. I took it in for an oil change and afterwards the car wouldn't hold idle and the rpm kept bouncing. I tried what your doing, map sensors, coolant temp sensors, swapping tb's, wiring harnesses.. etc. Took the car to mechanics who did the same and fiddled with it. Lost 2 years of driving, spent 10's of thousands on parts and flatbeds etc. Finally bit the bullet sent the car 2k miles to a mechanic who was an expert in older Lamborghinis and had the factory computer. In a couple days he found it was a ten cent pin. The place I had my oil changed pulled my ECU to diagnose another Murcielago and never informed me, upon reconnecting the ECU bent a pin (something to watch when reconnecting ecu's in these cars, the 550 too). Also I find on the 550 and Murci and cars of these vintages, they don't like things being messed with. Often removing and messing with components will cause other issues. This is my 0.02 and I enjoy wrenching on my cars too, but sometimes its cheaper to bite the bullet and have a pro look at it. Even if its a long distance to ship the car.
    I do re-iterate make sure they are experts in cars of the 550 vintage. I sent my car to the local Lamborghini dealer initially and they rushed, plugged it into the computer, throttle body code, get a new throttle body. Oh its not that, wiring harness, and so on.... lets just say on a Murci like the 550 that stuff adds up quick
     
    Robbe likes this.
  6. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    Had ran out of baby oil (not what you think), so the smoke test ended well before it was really started. (the baby oil is very convenient for the smoke machine)
    In the minute of filling the system with smoke, before I ran out, no traces visible. But have to repeat that after visiting the grocery store.

    So what else to do, except for disconnecting the ECU connectors? Well, why not check the MAF values to each other. So placed them back and reconnected everything.
    I knew the left MAF started at around 4-5 , which is normal for a 2.75 liter engine bank. (rule of thumb approach).
    But as I did not know the value of other one, I made a graph to see if the line was nice and lineair.
    Well, this is what came out after I ran the test on both sides, from 950 rpm up to 2400.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Looks like the right one is more or less ok, but the left certainly is not, even if it starts out ok . But a dip in the value is certainly not good.
    So I am really happy that I have found something that is not right.

    Next thing to do is order a new one, and compare further! Maybe the right one is too high or maybe still too low, having a more or less straight line is no proof...
    Thanks all for help and suggestions, will report further when the new MAF has arrived.
     
  7. franschman

    franschman Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2017
    350
    Holland
    Full Name:
    Bart
    Where are you located? If the part numbers are identical for 456 and 550 you can borrow mine for a while. I won't be driving for the next few weeks.
     
  8. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Will you try Ryan's idea i.e. disconnecting the (left) MAF? If the Left MAF is performing so badly, then disconnecting it should give an improvement. If you still have problems, then perhaps your throttle butterflies are not opening properly or sticking.
     
  9. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    I have disconnected both MAF's at the same time as well before decided to write down all values, but as it is running too rich by default when the MAF's are disconnected, it was not really clear that it was an improvement. I did not take it for a ride, but checked it in my garage. Maybe a test drive will indeed show improvement
    Tomorrow will be a rainy day I understood, so no testing outside.

    What I can do tomorrow is switch the MAFs and see if the low values follow to the other side. Pretty handy, almost everything double on this engine! Free testmule!

    @franschman, thanks, very kind.
    Living in The Betuwe, between Utrecht en Den Bosch...
    But I am positive that my test tomorrow will show that one MAF is faulty. If not, maybe if you are relatively near, we can arrange something!
     
    Qavion likes this.
  10. franschman

    franschman Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2017
    350
    Holland
    Full Name:
    Bart
    Let us know your proceedings.
    I live near Alkmaar, so not around the corner, but if I can help in any way just drop a mail to [email protected]
     
  11. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    #36 Robbe, Nov 23, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
    Ok, did a testdrive with the suspected bad MAF disconnected. The expected good one still connected.
    The car did not drive well, not much power, hesitating, even got a Slow Down Light for about 10 seconds!!
    Really can't see a connection between the SDL and the MAF or any other sensor...
    When the SDL disappeared, the car regained power for like 3 seconds, before it felt very sluggish again, even though the SDL did not return.

    Back home I connected the scanner, TPS's still react normal to the gas pedal, so that information should have worked well as input for the ECU instead of the MAF.
    I also checked the output of the O2sensors, they switched nicely between 0.1 and 0.9V so that looks ok. Only the secondary O2 sensors showed a strange pattern, but as far as I understand they do not control the air/fuel mixture. (or am I wrong here?)
    Right now I am out of ideas what to check or do, other than the full smoke test, but as the LTFT came down to 10 (no idea why, last time it remained at 16...)
    it can't be a self-closing vacuum leak...and the hesitation is mostly felt at half and full throttle, where vacuum leaks are the least influential...
    So even if I find a leak, it is not likely to be the cause of the sluggish and hesitating power.

    Any out of the box ideas?
    Sticking butterflies, how can I check that? Open it up? Does it have 12 butterflies or just 2? (I mean, are the valves/butterflies in the manifold as well, I know of the two on the side)
    As it is purely mechanically connected, would I feel it in the pedal? (felt nothing so far)
    How about the variable length manifold sensor?
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,051
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Thermocouple? I got similar symptoms on my 575M and it was a bad thermocouple.
     
  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Taz, if it was a thermocouple, wouldn't the slow down indications appear at the same time as (or before) the loss of power. i.e. ECU shutting down a bank deliberately due to high temperatures. The symptoms seem to be happening before.

    Robbe, did you disconnect the correct MAF? Remember this is a crossflow engine.
     
  14. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    #39 Robbe, Nov 24, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
    Ehhhhhhhh, no? The left ECU gave the low MAF readings, so I disconnected the left MAF....I should have disconnected the other one?
    Can try that hopefully today.
    Other test I will try , is do a test drive with the fuel pressure tester, and the gauge itself taped to the windscreen. So I can check live fuel pressure , to see if it drops below a certain level.
    Anybody any clue what normal minimum on psi I can expect?

    About thermocouples, I had a faulty one on my 355, that caused a SDL even starting from cold. The 5.2 ECU had stored the values, even though the thermocouple values were not strange when cold.
    It turned out that one was misreading the increases, it only showed 10% of what it should do, so at operating temp the difference between left and right was say 1.5V, in any case enough to throw the SDL on my 355 which it showed even when I let it cool down and start from cold the next day.
    If I had more SDL's in my 550 it could well be a broken thermocouple wire, that sometimes gives a good value, sometimes not, causing the ECU to go into limp mode. But that would certainly have the SDL solid for most of the time? The SDL from yesterday was the only time, and it lasted maybe 10 seconds before it disappeared, but the symptoms kept coming and going. Very odd.
     
  15. franschman

    franschman Formula Junior

    Dec 18, 2017
    350
    Holland
    Full Name:
    Bart
    It really is confusing; the left bank of cilinders is controlled by the left side ECU, but inlet sensors and crankshaft position sensor are on the right side of the engine.

    There is a good drawing of this in the electrical section of the WSM
     
  16. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    That's what I haven't figured out yet. Is the Left ECU reporting the status of MAF on the left hand side of the car (because it is directly wired up to the Left ECU)..... or is the Left ECU reporting the status of the MAF on the right hand side of the car (because it needs that data for proper bank operation, being a crossflow engine).

    I guess we will see when you disconnect the other one :D
     
  17. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    Small update,
    The testdrive I could not do, because the pressure tester started to leak before I drove off.
    But I was able to rev some with the hood open, with a canister beneath the leak. Dangerous, I know.
    But it showed a (what I consider) normal behaviour: idle at 50 psi, and with a bit revving to 3k a drop to around 45 psi or so. (remember it leaked, so without leak a few psi higher)
    The hesitating , low power symptoms occur at all driving speeds, already with only slightly opened throttle (or at least the pedal), so I do not expect that driving conditions suddenly see it drop to 20 psi or so.
    What I did notice with the right side MAF disconnected, standing still, and revving slightly, is that the revs of the engine fall back a little when holding the pedal steady to achieve a certain rpm. But that could be because of the disconnected MAF, not sure. Or an indication of a failing TPS...
    I did not do the testdrive without the fuel pressure , my time was limited. I can't really say if the engine sounded better with the maf disconnected.
    A used (reportedly good)MAF is on its way, as well as cheap new reproduction parts, so I will check further with those parts. Just as long as it takes till I get equal, logical readings from both sides. Later this week I assume.
    Hope to resume the smoke test this evening.

    Then something completely else, I read of the green check OK light that it should show (in the manual and here Fchat), but my car never shows a green OK.
    I have seen all sorts of info, like doors open in red, the SDL in red, triangles underneath the wheels in amber, Fuel sign in amber, ASR in amber.
    But nothing in green. Even the outside temp button shows me the temperature in amber...
    Is this a sign that the car knows it has a problem somewhere? But no codes on the scanner...
    Or do more cars miss the green OK? And is this not related?
     
    Qavion likes this.
  18. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    When you turn the key to position II you should get CHECK OK in the readout after about 5 seconds. I am in the habit of always waiting for the CHECK OK light to come on before starting the engine. Turn the key to position II, what for CHECK OK, start the engine. You aren't getting the CHECK OK? In the past, with something like suspension warning (bad actuators), I still would get the CHECK OK. Even when my check engine light was on, I still got the CHECK OK light. So not sure what is checked to get the CHECK OK.
     
  19. Robbe

    Robbe Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2013
    611
    The Netherlands
    Hmmm, the only message I get is the amber colored triangles (which disappear after driving off). No Check OK in any color...which I understood I should have had regardless of the actuator message.
    I have had the car for 7 weeks now, so I do not know how it was before that.
     
  20. AVIMAX

    AVIMAX Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2014
    686
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Ryan
    Amber triangles are likely from turning on the ignition a number of times without driving, that will set off a suspension error that goes away once you start driving and a speed signal is sent to the suspension ECU. I wish I knew what is checked to get the CHECK OK, but I don't. The WSM does say much.

    CHECK OK
    By putting the ignition key in "II",
    the multi-function display analyses
    the signals coming from the systems
    installed on the car and, if no failure
    is detected, the writing "CHECK OK"
    becomes green and the car can be
    started.
     
  21. MattH1973

    MattH1973 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2020
    41
    Full Name:
    Matthew Hunt
    thanks to the OP for posting - just to be clear, are you saying there is another 3 pin plug in the drivers footwell ? I have found the one in the passenger footwell but cannot get it to work with a scanner.
     
  22. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2002
    4,134
    Bay Area Calif.
    Full Name:
    Dave
    There should be one on each side located in the harness close to the large ECU connector.
    Are you connecting scanner to car 12 volt power with jumper clips?
     
  23. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I went through this whole mess with a 1997 F355 car in the last 90 days. I can offer you some of what I have found. Hopefully, it will help you.

    There is only one Engine Coolant Temp sensor that is read by the computer. The other sensor goes to the Temp Coolant Gauge in the dash.
    The problems affecting the 355 I worked on were:

    1. Leaking fuel injector Orings at the fuel rail
    2. Leaking air right before the exhaust Cat Converter connection to the header
    3. Broken knock sensors
    4. Old O2 sensors
    5. Broken wires in the engine harness

    I saw that you had some issues with the fuel pressure, get that fixed.
    You also had some problems with one MAF. If you do decide to change it, buy the Ferrari unit. Forget all other Bosch equivalent.

    Good luck.
     
    Qavion likes this.
  24. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Ignition on, immobiliser off? Some have had problems with specific scanners. What brand do you have?
     
  25. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,532
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Slightly different on the 550. There are 3 sensors (like the 355 2.7), but the wiring is even stranger on the 550.

    There is a sensor for the gauge
    There is second sensor (on the left bank) which only feeds the HVAC system which controls the radiator fans
    There is a third sensor (on the right bank) which feeds the Right ECU. The right ECU uses this data for right bank engine control, but also sends signals to:
    1) the left ECU
    2) the emergency fan relays (in case the HVAC doesn't turn on the fan/s at the appropriate time). The wiring routing for this is ridiculous. It goes from the right ECU through a left/right bank interconnection plug, then through the left hand engine harness to the relay panel.

    Just don't ask me how the data from the right water temp data goes from the the right ECU to the left ECU. CAN bus?
     

Share This Page