P4. There is some question about that history however. Ferrari states one thing. The original Le Mans Records say another. Maybe they swapped the chassis plates with 0856. If the Le Mans records are correct they would have had to swap the engines as well. When I pointed that out to the they really didn't have much of an answer... Personally I rely on my own research and make myself happy.
If ferrari switched numbers (they did this often) They have a written record of it. They record everything!!!
They do and they say they did but I have the original Scrutinising documents from Le Mans 67 and both the engine and chassis numbers are clearly listed and verfied by the official at Le Mans and if they switched the identity of 0856 and 0858 at Le Mans 67 they would have had to switch BOTH the chassis plates and the engines.
They usually just change the last diget of the number on the engine and the chassis plate with out removing anything. They use a file and a number punch. I had a race car they did this to. They have it on there records Image Unavailable, Please Login
So your saying since the beginning of Ferrari they have written records of any changes they made on their race cars? Sure wish Chiti had taken that practice with him when he moved to ATS and AutoDelta!! Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2011-Chicago April 2011
I dont think from day one....But from the late 50's early 60's they started. Records are only on Factory team cars not on customer cars
+1. From readign Ed McDonough's book on the T33 as well as the book on Alfa in F1, Autodelta comes across as chaotic. Chiti seems like he was more intereste in stray pets than systematic development. This also explains Alfa's erratic results in F1 in the 1980's.
That is good. I always wondered about the slightly hazy history of chassis number Dino #0834 and often thought it may have had a chassis plate swap in late 1967 with #0842 due to the #0842 accident. They should have records since it was still a factory car. Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2011-Chicago April 2011
Alfa should have fired Chiti after 1967. He was a good engine man but a poor team manager. Sorry, back to #0858. Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2011-Chicago April 2011
I just found this youtube accidentally, as well as this thread as I searched 712 on Fchat...go to 6.37 for the race, although the first portion is nice as you see the cars up close at Spa as they enter the track. This past year I was privileged to see one of the Ferrari CanAm cars at a private estate in the NE. Seems I remember a story about the Factory selling the same car multiple times, but with different number, but I could be mistaken about this as I was in awe of what was before me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnVKQbmWMRw&feature=related
See the attached pic where we demonstrate that the Factory added an extension to the reverse lock-out on 0556(0446)MD (in order to also lock-out first gear) in summer 1955. The Factory documented modifications on a "Foglio Montaggio Cambio" - this mod was made to our car while it was owned and raced by privateers Francois Picard and Gino Munaron; the car was later traded in to the Factory and it became a works car for one race. I have no idea how consistently these "cambio" records were kept. Image Unavailable, Please Login
ok, I spoke w/ my father after I made the previous post, and it appears that I got the previous post entirely wrong. While "cambio" can mean "alteration" as well as "transmission", the context of this particular sheet is that it is a snippet from the original Assembly Data Sheets that, in fact, dealt with the gearbox section of the transaxle. It is not a sheet that was created after production to document a modification. Picard apparently asked for the lock-out extension during the car's assembly. The section below the part of the sheet that I posted provides the details of the gear ratios. a typical set of mid-1950s ADS's are as follows: Cover sheet Foglio Montaggio Motore - Engine assembly sheet Relazione Sala Prova - dyno room tests Foglio Montaggio Cambio - Transmission assembly sheet Foglio Montaggio Ponte - Rear axle assembly sheet Foglio Montaggio Autotelaio - Chassis assembly sheet Sorry for the confusion.
Jim, don't you have the original tail from 0858? Wasn't it used in returning 0854 back to the coupe configuration?
No I have the original spyder tail of 0858 which it was fitted with on 0858 during it's last race as a P4 at Brands Hatch in 1967 and I've now fitted to 0846. 0854 is being restored with her original coupe tail which came with her when I bought her. When I bought her she was incorrectly fitted with 0858's spyder tail.
Not sure if there has been a more recent discussion about 0858, but this ad from Talacrest for the car seems to imply the body conversion is a work in progress? http://www.talacrest.com/Ferrari-Sales/Ferrari-330-P4/4436.htm >8^) ER
Regarding the photo of the #21 car captioned "#0858 with Mike Parkes at Le Mans 1967". Interestingly, the history that RM Auction had published in 2009, and subsequently also used by John Collins, attribute 0858 to "Mairesse-Beurlys - 3rd - number 24". Has this apparent discrepancy ever been resolved, which car was #21, which was #24 that year - and what source each view relied on?
>> I have the original Scrutinizing documents from Le Mans 67 and both the engine and chassis numbers are clearly listed and verified by the official at Le Mans << Since there are histories reporting 0858 having been the 2nd place car #21 (Parkes/Scarfiotti ), or the 3rd place #24 (Mairesse/Beurlys) as written by RM and Talacrest, I hope you don't mind me clarifying what the original LM documents indicated?
At the time of the 2009 Maranello auction the factory claimed a totally different history than most of the journalists and historians had researched and stated over decades. In the end, the auction company preferred to follow the factory...... Marcel Massini
Let's not forget LeMans 1960. Ferrari did the s/n switch of chassis at the Le Mans scrutinizing and not only got away with it but the car won. So why not try it again a few years later. The result was not as spectacular but the scrutinizing results were just as good. The officials just read the numbers as shown at the time on the chassis member and the engine block tonga's crew
Is this 0858 with its new body today in Paris? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Looks like it. Rear clam should have 7 slats on the rear side of the body, not 8. Also the livery is as at Brands Hatch, 1967, where the car was a Spyder, not a Berlinetta.
