NEW V8 MID ENGINED MODEL (BIG BROTHER) | Page 49 | FerrariChat

NEW V8 MID ENGINED MODEL (BIG BROTHER)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.

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  1. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,979
    Menlo Park, CA
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    Paul Chua
    I just wanted to say thanks for this great primer.
     
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  2. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
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    Always surprised by how smart some dudes are on Fchat. Some days, I fancy myself pretty sharp until I read posts like this one...^^^
     
    LK1 likes this.
  3. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

    May 10, 2012
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    Paulo
    It’s his business, of course he knows what he is talking.
     
  4. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Yeah...I guess so. I’m good at my business, but my command and mastery of the subject material doesn’t match his. If only it did...
     
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  5. jumpinjohn

    jumpinjohn F1 Veteran
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    Mar 22, 2013
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    Well, not everyone really knows the business they are in so IMO, the compliment stands...

    :)


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  6. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

    May 10, 2012
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    If those people you mention are ok in being mediocre then sure but its not the level I compare or aspire to.
     
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  7. jumpinjohn

    jumpinjohn F1 Veteran
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    Mar 22, 2013
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    No argument there.

    27 more days...


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  8. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2016
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    Hopefully something will be spotted/leaked/hinted at/whatever in those 27 days, otherwise it's gonna be a long, boring wait.
     
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  9. jumpinjohn

    jumpinjohn F1 Veteran
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    Mar 22, 2013
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    We can surely keep conjecturing and making stuff up for that long! Someone will mention Tesla eventually and that will precipitate at least three dozen responses!!

    :)

    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  10. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    Whoa! Thanks everyone for the compliments but I’m no genius and even though I run my business the people working for me are mostly smarter. This is also an area that directly and strongly affects us so I have been asking a lot of questions and giving it a lot of thought. Happy to pass on what I discover but I won’t always be right. Cheers
     
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  11. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    Since someone mentioned Tesla, here’s another interesting tidbit. I met a Chinese battery company last year. At that point Tesla’s total battery production was 8GW. To give Tesla some context (and the Chinese company thought Tesla was interesting but really a sideshow in battery terms - not saying they were right but that was their view...) they were in the throes of putting a deal together for one Euro manufacturer to build one factory near to the Euro car plants with the capacity to build 200GW. One factory. I don’t know what happened after but it tells you the scale the Chinese think in and how much strength their battery producers have, and how small Tesla still are.

    To work stuff out you just have to apply a little simple logic and ask a few obvious questions. Why might the Chinese be thinking about building in Europe? After all, they will have massive investment costs, costs of production will be much higher than China and they lose some control over pricing because their factory’s production would need to be bought by the car manufacturer - wouldn’t they be handing a dominant strategic position back to the Europeans? Therefore, my guess is that the invite came from the European company, who would want as much control over their power train supply as possible (easy to follow that logic). Possession is nine tenths of the law so with the Chinese-owned battery factory physically located near the European car factory that protects the European car manufacturer from the Chinese ownership to some degree - this would represent a large investment for the Chinese and would be subject to European law and local regulations so it would represent consistent supply to the car manufacturer, even if they fell out with the battery factory owner.

    The next question is why the Chinese would want to do it? That is more complex. If no Chinese battery company would do it, the Europeans are forced to either build their own industry (takes 30 years, so not enough time) or buy Chinese-produced product. However, the Chinese love established brands and have great respect for them - more than their own, home brands. The Chinese car manufacturers gain the upper hand over European ones in the long term if Chinese battery companies stay at home. But Chinese battery companies may figure that the prestige of building for famous (and loved) European brand names, plus the opportunity for global production, is too alluring. There is also the issue of freight costs. It is roughly $800 to ship a FBU car from Asia to Europe. A car-sized battery would only be more because you cannot use a RO-RO ship, so that is quite inefficient. It only takes one battery company to decide to build in Europe and they gain an advantage on the other Chinese battery manufacturers, therefore if the opportunity comes you can understand why it is tempting for them. The Chinese battery companies are likely to want to do it for reasons not quite so strong as the European car manufacturer.

    This is highly risky for the Chinese. China is full of European and American car manufacturers building technology-transfer product in China. No doubt they would love their own car manufacturers to one-day be able to repay the compliment in some way (exporting cars to Europe for example). But that happens better if Chinese battery production stays in China. Cue the Chinese government. As I understand they are forcing battery manufacturers to team up with local car manufacturers (this might not be exactly correct but I think something along these lines is occurring). The reason behind this is that they have mandated that all cities will be ICE free and battery vehicle only. This means that unless battery production is reserved for Chinese cars, this cannot happen because nobody would want a gasoline car and therefore the scale of car production needing battery power would be like nothing seen before - even the Chinese battery industry will struggle to supply let alone have time and resource to build factories in Europe. While Europe talks and moves slowly, the Chinese just get it done. This is such a difficult and quick change for car manufacturers. It is only possible in a managed economy like China. So, I can’t tell you how this plays out, but you can make your own deductions using simple logic. Will the Chinese battery industry come to Europe’s rescue? Will the Chinese government allow that given they are committed to dealing with their terrible pollution problem in cities?

    And how does this affect Ferrari? Maybe not much yet, but they will definitely have to do a full electric vehicle at some point, unless they are prepared to give up the China market, which seems doubtful. In time though, battery tech will get very compelling and who and where Ferrari source this tech from will be important. Ferrari’s main USP has been that they design and produce their own engines. How much will they still be able to do this in the future if engine also means ‘powertrain’? Neatly getting back on track, the May 30th reveal of the new ‘tech focused’ car (Ferrari said this) will be very interesting indeed and probably give us much to ponder.
     
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  12. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    You know as well the revolution inside the Ferrari range is coming
    First, they don t want to keep the NA 12; but today, they need to keep a convergence point, in order to make accepting by customers most of the part of this futur range .
    The choice to continue to produce the NA V 12 depends on the decision to pay a fine by car to the UE authority
     
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  13. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Another reason why China wants to build a factory in Europe not mentioned in the otherwise very informative comments above >

    Lithium Batteries' Dirty Secret: Manufacturing Them Leaves Massive Carbon Footprint
    Once in operation, electric cars certainly reduce your carbon footprint, but making the lithium-ion batteries could emit 74% more CO2 than for conventional cars.

    by Niclas Rolander, Jesper Starn and Elisabeth Behrmann

    Beneath the hoods of millions of the clean electric cars rolling onto the world's roads in the next few years will be a dirty battery.


    Every major carmaker has plans for electric vehicles to cut greenhouse gas emissions, yet their manufacturers are, by and large, making lithium-ion batteries in places with some of the most polluting grids in the world.

    By 2021, capacity will exist to build batteries for more than 10 million cars running on 60 kilowatt-hour packs, according to data of Bloomberg NEF. Most supply will come from places like China, Thailand, Germany and Poland that rely on non-renewable sources like coal for electricity.

    "We're facing a bow wave of additional CO2 emissions," said Andreas Radics, a managing partner at Munich-based automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors, which argues that for now, drivers in Germany or Poland may still be better off with an efficient diesel engine.

    The findings, among the more bearish ones around, show that while electric cars are emission-free on the road, they still discharge a lot of the carbon-dioxide that conventional cars do.

    Just to build each car battery—weighing upwards of 500 kilograms (1,100 pounds) in size for sport-utility vehicles—would emit up to 74% more C02 than producing an efficient conventional car if it's made in a factory powered by fossil fuels in a place like Germany, according to Berylls' findings.

    Yet regulators haven't set out clear guidelines on acceptable carbon emissions over the life cycle of electric cars, even as the likes of China, France and the U.K. move toward outright bans of combustion engines.

    "It will come down to where is the battery made, how is it made, and even where do we get our electric power from," said Henrik Fisker, chief executive officer and chairman of Fisker Inc., a California-based developer of electric vehicles.
    * The future of the EV industry
    For perspective, the average German car owner could drive a gas-guzzling vehicle for three and a half years, or more than 50,000 kilometers, before a Nissan Leaf with a 30 kWh battery would beat it on carbon-dioxide emissions in a coal-heavy country, Berylls estimates show.

    And that's one of the smallest batteries on the market: BMW's i3 has a 42 kWh battery, Mercedes's upcoming EQC crossover will have a 80 kWh battery, and Audi's e-tron will come in at 95 kWh.

    With such heavy batteries, an electric car's carbon footprint can grow quite large even beyond the showroom, depending on how it's charged. Driving in France, which relies heavily on nuclear power, will spit out a lot less CO2 than Germany, where 40% of the grid burns on coal.

    "It's not a great change to move from diesel to German coal power," said NorthVolt AB CEO Peter Carlsson, a former Tesla manager who is trying to build a 4-billion-euro ($4.6 billion) battery plant in Sweden that would run on hydropower. "Electric cars will be better in every way, but of course, when batteries are made in a coal-based electricity system it will take longer" to surpass diesel engines, he said.

    To be sure, other studies show that even in coal-dominant Poland, using an electric car would emit 25% less carbon dioxide than a diesel car, according to Transport & Environment Brussels, a body that lobbies the European Union for sustainable environmental policy.

    The benefit of driving battery cars in cities will be immediate: their quiet motors will reduce noise pollution and curb toxins like nitrogen oxide, NOX, a chemical compound spewed from diesel engines that's hazardous to air quality and human health.

    "In downtown Oslo, Stockholm, Beijing or Paris, the most immediate consideration is to improve air quality and the quality of life for the people who live there," said Christoph Stuermer, the global lead analyst for Pricewaterhouse Coopers Autofacts.

    But electric cars aren't as clean as they could be. Just switching to renewable energy for manufacturing would slash emissions by 65%, according to Transport & Environment. In Norway, where hydro-electric energy powers practically the entire grid, the Berylls study showed electric cars generate nearly 60% less CO2 over their lifetime, compared with even the most efficient fuel-powered vehicles.

    As it is now, manufacturing an electric car pumps out "significantly" more climate-warming gases than a conventional car, which releases only 20% of its lifetime C02 at this stage, according to estimates of Mercedes-Benz's electric-drive system integration department.

    "Life-cycle emissions in electric vehicles depend on how much the car is driven in order to get to a point of crossover on diesels," Ola Kallenius, the Daimler AG board member who will take over as CEO next year, said at the Paris Motor Show this month. "By 2030, the life cycle issue will improve."

    Some manufacturers have heeded calls to produce batteries in a more sustainable way. Tesla uses solar power at its Gigafactory for batteries in Nevada, and has plans for similar plants in Europe and Shanghai. Chinese firm Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. is also looking to power its future German plant with renewables.

    "The topic of CO2 lifetime evaluations is starting to get more traction," said Radics at Berylls. "Carmakers need to be transparent in this discussion to avoid unsettling buyers."
     
  14. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2016
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    I remember a Ferrari enthusiast/collector (working in the gas business) talking about this and other issues, like massively upgrading electrical grids to provide more energy and sustain higher loads, disposing of batteries etc.) a while ago on Instagram. Revolutionizing the whole system will take decades.
     
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  15. graeme355

    graeme355 Formula Junior

    Jun 30, 2004
    258
    I think it's important to remember that painting CO2 as the enemy is a political strategy. As with most things politics, it starts off with an agenda, usually power and profit, which is implemented by creating fear (climate collapse, terrorism, etc) which has people clamoring for the government to step in to solve the problem they created. Whether the threat is real or not doesn't matter to them.

    In the case of CO2, even if it was the cause of global warming/change, which it is not, (levels have gone up while average temps are actually going down, but they fudge the numbers to suit the agenda), man's CO2 output is around 4% of earths total CO2 make up. Taxing and creating trading schemes around 4% isn't going to stop something that isn't even happening. The earth's climate is always in a state of flux and goes in cycles that correlate primarily with that of the sun's cycles.

    But so long as people believe everything the mainstream media tells them to think, which keeps them thinking with the framework of systems (circular thinking) they will likely get away with it. It's not coincidence that we're now being told that we have until 2030 to save the planet as that is the year, under the UN's Agenda 30, that they want to implement their one world government using the excuse of sustainability.



    “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve. This is true even of the pious brethren who carry the gospel to foreign parts.”

    ― H.L. Mencken, Minority Report
     
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  16. F142George

    F142George Karting

    Jun 26, 2014
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    Look I completely understand that every person is entitled to their political stance and by no question are some governments and activists abusing global warming but stating claims such as CO2 not having an effect on climate change is simply not true. Misinterpreted information such as that will only make future generations less knowledgeable about the world and become more of a sponge to all the information that mainstream media tell them. Here are some science to prove it and unless you are einstein, these facts are difficult to refute.

    Gases such as CO2, H2O, NO, CH4, and CFCs are all thermal trapping agents that promote the change of climate. These gases and many others are called “greenhouse” gases due to their ability to reflect heat leaving the earth back towards the surface and heat the surface and lower atmosphere. This is very similar to how an actual greenhouse works, as the glass traps the heat within the greenhouse, hence the name. Heat, in the form of infrared radiation, has a specific wavelength that is absorbed by the vibrations of said greenhouse gases. The dipole changes in the gases and the fact that these gases are IR active, allow it to reflect and absorb said infrared radiation (heat).

    As shown in the spectral irradiance vs wavelength figure, the energy spectrum from the Sun closely resembles a blackbody at a temperature of 5250 degrees celcius. The intensity of radiation at sea level is significantly lower, especially in the critical region. At high enough temperatures, gasses have certain vibrational frequencies which get activated. This means the corresponding wavelengths get absorbed by the molecule resulting in the missing regions in the red spectrum.

    Therefore we know greenhouse gases can absorb and retransmit this energy in all directions, as the vibrational modes get activated. This effect can be seen as CO2 has vibrational modes around 667, 1333 and 2349 nm, we see the intensity is significantly lower due to radiation being absorbed by the CO2 in the atmosphere.
     
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  17. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    This planet has always had environmental fluctuations, and will continue to do so as long as it exists. Your first graph shows that.

    Within the context of this thread, even if Ferrari were to continue building NA V12 masterpieces, and scrap the whole V6 turbo/hybrid direction, the impact that Ferraris would have on the earth's C02 content would likely be <0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.

    If you disagree, I'd like to see your calculations to support such.
     
  18. F142George

    F142George Karting

    Jun 26, 2014
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    George
    Please fully read my comment. Not once did I mention Ferrari, I was simply stating that CO2 has an effect on climate. Further more, environmental fluctuations are indeed a thing, however don't you think it is at all intriguing why our current CO2 concentration is 40% higher than the highest peak in the past 650,000 years? I'm not putting any politics or opinions here. Just purely research that is unanimously agreed upon by the scientific community.
     
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  19. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    Bournemouth, UK
    Fchat is infamous for diverting off topic, but I think we have a new championship winning topic!!! :D
     
  20. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    actually right on topic if it wasn't for the CO2 craze we would have V12's galore without turbos added elsewhere and no electricity helpers. Not to mention all the EU rules for car design that more often than not simply serve a political purpose rather than (pick your bandwagon of the day) purpose...:eek:
     
  21. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Bring back the V12 in a modern Testarossa!
     
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  22. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

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    "The rear mid engine architecture is designed to integrate multiple power units with a higher specific power output than the 488 Pista"

    Pista punches out 185hp per liter, so 6.5*185 = 1200. That's a lot of power if it will ever happen! :eek:
     
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  23. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
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    Ferrari project F167 ( according to day355)
     
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  24. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

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    #1225 F140C, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
    According to WhichCar.au, F167 is the 812's successor.

    https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/2018-ferrari-812-superfast-review-1

    @ferr9000 Can you confirm? Thanks

    Edit:
    1) It fits with Day355 comment about V12 surviving past the 812 Superfast;

    2) It fits with the LinkedIn curriculum mentioning it as a "front-engined car", like F164 (Portofino) and F166.
     
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