Montana registration crack-down | Page 8 | FerrariChat

Montana registration crack-down

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Terence Courtnage, Oct 25, 2018.

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  1. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
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    how does one prove where a rarely driven, always stored car actually resides?
     
  2. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    Insurance registrations, fastrack like surveillance systems, home address of the driver, parking ticket history, etc.

    The issue isn’t who owns it but where it is driven. LLCs don’t matter if the car is driven in another state. But you are free to drive it in Montana!

    SV
     
  3. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

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    Insurance doesn't care. As mentioned by several in this thread.

    If the car is in storage (exotics and semi-exotics aren't parked on the street) who knows where it really is?

    ** I know a guy who owns dozens of very collectible cars that he NEVER registers or drives. They are assets that he holds that are off the grid.**

    Parking tickets and toll road fees are easily avoided. No pics being taken etc.

    If someone is pulled over with Montana plates (BTW, pulling someone over who has out of state plates and is doing nothing illegal IS a violation of the 4th amendment.) how can anyone prove how long the car has been in the state? They can't unless the
    owner left breadcrumbs. Using a toll pass, getting a ticket etc.

    Bottom line, the whole thing seems insane and a huge waste of time and money (GA residents tax dollars).

    Folks who take it personally that someone uses a tax loophole worry me. Chances are THEY are using a tax loophole....like writing off the interest on their mortgage. That is a loophole, folks. As are writing off childcare, reducing taxes when you max out retirement accts, ROTHS, 529s, HSAs...investment properties...the list is almost never-ending.

    YET, many of you seem REALLY worked up over this loophole. WHY?

    You are perhaps being manipulated. This is just a political 1% us vs. them thing that must stop in our country.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  4. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
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    You're conflating a loophole, write-off, and dodge.
    No judgment, but the fact is, registering a car in MT while using it in another state in order to avoid sales tax and or registration, is clearly illegal. It doesn't take too long to find the violation if you want to search.
     
  5. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

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    In places like CA, the govt has put into place incentives for neighbors to rat on neighbors..I believe CA actually pays some reward if you rat your neighbor out for out of state plates. The essence of this entire thread is not about taxes (not really) or cheating or using loopholes, rich vs poor.. it is about how in some states the govt has clearly become perhaps too comfortable with having too much power. What I have read here is how many have been manipulated into thinking that the Govts job IS to act this way. its not.
     
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  6. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    Incorrect. Each and every action is perfectly legal, as noted. It is merely by some arbitrary number of days that another jurisdiction claims the power of taxation over a properly-registered MT asset.

    CW
     
  7. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
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    You need to look up the definition of "loophole" -a means of escape especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded.

    What you are citing as loopholes are definitely not loopholes. Those deductions are well established in law and not contested by any taxing authority in the US. Unless of course that particular deduction is fraudulent.

    I remember in 1999 something like 2 million children in the United States disappeared without a trace. In 1998 they were claimed as tax deductions. However, when the IRS required a SS number for all children in 1999, those 2 million kids never showed up on that year's tax return. Whatever happened to those poor kids?! :D:D:D
     
  8. cls

    cls Formula 3

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    Yes, opening an LLC and registering a car in MT is perfectly legal. But, your state has its own laws, and if you're a resident and bring property into that state, it doesn't really care what's legal in MT. Your odds of getting caught and prosecuted are slim, but if you register a car in MT and reside in and keep the car in a different state, your actions are illegal (depending on your state, of course.) Like I said, it's easy to look up your state's position on the matter, disagreeing with that position doesn't make it legal.
     
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  9. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    It's legal if you rent/lease the car from the LLC like a fleet vehicle. That's what U-Haul does will all their fleet in the continental US + Canada. They all have AZ plates. All of them are International Registration Plan (IRP) registered for other jurisdictions to make something, though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Registration_Plan
     
  10. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

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    That's true in Massachusetts, but your plate would have to show "Apportioned" as shown below. Of course the same tax would have to be paid as a regular in state MA plate.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
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    So MA will charge 100% taxes/fees on that even if some of the miles were done out of state? I thought they will only tax you the annual amount as a percent of the total miles driven in that state. So if you did all the driving in MA, you would have to pay the equivalent. DC's DMV has an example: https://dmv.dc.gov/service/irp-apportioned-fee-calculations

    I think the entire LLC thing is a hassle. It would be a lot cheaper just to buy a nice ranch in Montana to vacation and keep cars there than deal with legal expenses on this when they come after you. I think if you have an LCC, rent/lease the car, do the apportioned/IRP thing, and garage queen it (0 miles), you could be okay.
     
  12. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    And, again, I'd tell you that there's a conflict of interest when one state determines that its' laws are legal if it's infringing on your right to operate a vehicle legally-registered in another state on their roads. Just because a state enacts a law doesn't mean it has the power to do so. This is something, IMO, that should be challenged and needs to be resolved at a higher level, therefore. This is a state v. state issue that, perhaps, only SCOTUS can settle.

    CW
     
  13. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    uhaul vehicles

    The vehicles are registered with the International Registration Plan (IRP), which means that the plates don’t expire and instead they pay fees to the States and Provinces in which the vehicles are driven.
     
  14. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

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    That's correct. If neither the owner, nor the car, ever set foot, or tire, in MT, they would owe 100% to MA.
     
  15. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    #190 arizonaitalian, Nov 4, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
    These types of inter-state taxation questions have been settled by the SCOTUS on several occasions. The fundamental basis of many tax laws is built upon Nexus. Not only state, but federal and international taxation rules. For both physical and intangible property. Lots of assets and income streams are taxed in this manner, with no regard to some legal entity registration. Again, this is very, very well trodden and followed law.

    Btw, you have no "right" to use an automobile on the roads of a state. That "right" does not exist. You can have the ability to operate a vehicle on the roads of a state, provided you abide by their laws for doing so.

    You have made it clear that you will be swayed by neither logic nor law.
     
  16. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    No, I won't be swayed by empty logic and flawed law.

    CW
     
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  17. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #192 vrsurgeon, Nov 5, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
    Driving is a privilege, not a right. What you perceive as "flawed law" doesn't stop the officer from issuing you a citation, or arresting you for breaking the "flawed law" provided its on the books.
     
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  18. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    I don't see what the debate is. If you register your car in Georgia and your primary residence is in Georgia, and said car is in the state for longer than 30 days.. you have to register it in Georgia in order to drive it on Georgian roads. The investigators have ample evidence showing willful disregard for these laws. From the point of purchasing the car and NOT moving it out of state to accruing enough pictures and usage of electronic toll pass data to show the car should have been registered in Georgia. They've got enough evidence to prove their point to a jury and a prosecutor.
     
  19. henryr

    henryr Two Time F1 World Champ
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    dale probably has experience with this via the IRS

    the GA DOR is just the little brother but

    suppose I go down to the DMV with all my montana stuff to title and register my car. my super nice 360 challenge that i purchased in 2004 for $225k....

    so i "avoided" sale tax on $225k. 6-7 % = $15,750 ish

    also avoided the then GA ADV tax : $5,000 plus per year - who knows ?

    so we are on 14 yrs @ about $85,000 or more in back taxes..... plus interest....and fines

    hows writing that six figure check ?
     
  20. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    I understand what the law is. I believe it needs to be challenged, though. If cited, most, if not all, cave. Facing down prosecution by a Governmental entity is daunting. However, that, in itself, isn't a reason why an over-reaching tax law should be upheld. This all smacks of heads-I-win-tails-you-lose. Why everyone is so accepting of it, though, I can't really say.

    CW
     
  21. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    I don't have a dog in this fight since my cars are registered in Virginia and I get the privilege of paying $10k a year in car taxes. :mad:

    That said, I believe the legal question is: "who owns the car (or RV)?" It's up to the State to prove that the LLC is being used improperly and to discover who the owner is. Once they can "prove" that it is an individual that "owns" the car.....then they can throw all the residency registration requirements at them.

    If they can't connect it to an individual then it remains an out of State business vehicle which is usually covered by a separate set of far less onerous laws. Just imagine if out of State trucking companies or rental car companies were subject to residency requirements....it would set off an interstate tax war.

    I don't fault people for trying to avoid taxes.....that's why tax attorneys get paid well. If someone is dumb enough to put their name on the LLC and only use it for avoiding paying taxes in their home State.....then it will likely end up being viewed as tax evasion if their home State decides to pursue it.

    JD
     
  22. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    Easy enough to create numerous holding companies in other states in order to avoid this scenario.

    It's silly one would have to, though.

    CW
     
  23. Innovativethinker

    Innovativethinker F1 Veteran
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    I’m in ca, and comes up with exotics, motorhomes and big boats (you have to store it in Mexico for xx months”

    I just pay the taxes and don’t worry about getting pulled over or getting a letter in the mail.
     
  24. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    So you have an LLC, an entity, that owns a vehicle in a state and operates a vehicle in said state. That vehicle is using roads that are owned, maintained and property of the state that it is being operated in.
    If that LLC is operating the vehicle for purposes of business in that state, doesn't that LLC have to have an operating license in that state? If you're operating a vehicle in a state, regardless of the state of registration, aren't you subject to laws of that state? I don't see how it can be argued that a vehicle used 51% of a time on a yearly basis or greater than 30 consecutive days on Georgia roads doesn't have to obey Georgia laws irrespective of ownership.

    Kinda like claiming to be a "sovereign citizen". You're still subject to public laws when using a public service like roads.
     
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  25. David_S

    David_S F1 World Champ
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    I have a lot full of U-Hauls. A quick check shows only 1 trailer registered in AZ. Everything else is a mix, including one with Canadian plates. Best looking plate I currently see is a Idaho trailer tag.
     

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