LIon Air 737 Max 8 Crash in Indonesia | FerrariChat

LIon Air 737 Max 8 Crash in Indonesia

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Jacob Potts, Oct 29, 2018.

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  1. Jacob Potts

    Jacob Potts Formula Junior

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    The plane crashed into the sea ten minutes after takeoff.

    From the article: "He told AFP: “It got repaired in Denpasar (in Bali) and then it was flown to Jakarta.

    “'Engineers in Jakarta received notes and did another repair before it took off' on Monday. That's the normal procedure for any plane.'

    "Sirait, the chief executive of Lion Air, added: 'We don't dare to say what the facts are, or are not, yet. We are also confused about the why, since it was a new plane.'"

    Lion Air said the pilot Suneja and co-pilot Harvino were experienced, with more than 11,000 flight hours between them.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/7605999/indonesian-plane-crash-lion-air-aircraft-crashed-take-off-jakarta/
     
  2. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    Hmm there was a thread about it last night, but looks deleted. I replied with tail#, engine type, and fact it was 2 months old.
     
  3. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    This "new" airplane was in the hands of an operator for two months. Who knows what happened to it with an airline that has had numerous fines for bad maintenance and operation. This airplane was built by Boeing and passed all the fight tests and system tests before it was delivered.
     
  4. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Lion was actually banned in Europe due to safety concerns at one time... years ago.
     
  5. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Its in Silver
    Not to mention it flew from Seattle to Indonesia without any apparent issues. Highly unlikely there was any latent defect from manufacturing at Boeing or its suppliers. Without any further knowledge, and keeping with our tradition of speculating wildly, the theory posted in the Silver thread of a covered static port is a likely probable cause.
     
  6. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    That seems to have become a trend. Two 757s went down because of static port issues, one off the Dominican Republic and one off Peru. In one case, tape had been left over the port after maintenance; in the other, insects had built a nest inside the port of an aircraft that hadn't been flown in awhile. If checking static ports isn't part of pilots' preflight checks, it should be!
     
  7. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Should amend that to say likely probably catalyst. As stated in the Silver post if the weather was VFR then the pilots not being able to fly an airplane is the real cause.
     
  8. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
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  9. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    NY Times speculates its a Pitot tube problem

    I'm not buying it. IMO, the press should not speculate and should just report facts. I don't see how this helps anyone.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/30/world/asia/indonesia-crash-lion-air-pitot.html

    Before Lion Air Flight 610 lost contact on Monday, the plane displayed erratic changes in its speed, altitude and direction, causing experts to speculate that a problem with the aircraft's instruments used to calculate airspeed and altitude may have contributed to the crash.

    Those indicators, or pitot tubes, have been implicated in previous aviation disasters, but experts said that determining the cause of the crash would ultimately require the recovery of the plane’s flight data recorders, the so-called black boxes

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  10. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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  11. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

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    Saw this on another site, page from Flight and Maintenance log from day before crash.

    Not sure if there's anything here. The OP did mention the Corrective Action boxes are empty. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Fortunately, the plane is only in water about 120 feet deep...
     
  13. kylec

    kylec F1 Rookie
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  14. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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  15. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Now there are reports that there were wild altitude and speed oscillations on the inbound flight... enough to make some pax ill.

    Lion said they inspected the plane, found nothing and sent it on its way... it's last flight.
     
  16. JLF

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    #16 JLF, Nov 1, 2018
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    I’m curious as to why “your not buying it?”
    But I agree it’s to early to speculate, especially by moronic journalists.

    The (ADIRS) air data inertial reference system produces data such as position, speed, altitude, and attitude for the flight displays, flight management computers, flight controls and engine controls. Three pitot probes are one of the components of this system. Two for the air data modules and one for the standby instruments.

    If the pitots were blocked or covered I think that it would definitely have effect on aircraft systems. Not simply a loss of airspeed indications like the good old days.
    They could have been getting stick shaker and stick pusher at low altitudes which may explain the altitude loss even though they had flyable airspeed.
    I’m curious why they went to 320 knots at 6000 feet.

    Another thing I was considering is that the flight controls move in much much smaller increments at high speeds vs. say 140 knots where you get full deflection of rudder, elevators and ailerons if you need it. If the air data system was allowing full deflections at 300 knots because it “thought” the plane was flying slow or not at all it could lead to structural failure.
     
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  17. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    Let's be realistic. The pilots have most likely never really hand flown the airplane. Maybe for 45 seconds per flight. If the autopilot quits or the pitot static system goes tits up they most likely had next to zero skills to just turn every thing off and just fly the airplane.
     
  18. JLF

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    #18 JLF, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    Based on Asian airline accident/incident history that’s a real possibility.

    I wonder if they’ve ruled out a possible suicide, all those airspeed altitude fluctuations could have been a fight for control in the cockpit.
     
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  19. Bob Parks

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    My analytic abilities are not up to those who fly now but the first thing I thought of was the auto pilot malfunction and then plugged or taped- over air data sensors.
     
  20. JLF

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    #20 JLF, Nov 1, 2018
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    I wouldn’t think autopilot malfunction would be an issue, it may well have happened, but with some abrupt control input it would have automatically disconnected or they could have easily disconnected it by pushing down the master switch on the mcp. I know south Asian Airline pilots don’t have a great reputation but they are trained pilots and should be able to fly straight and level in clear skies with the autopilot off.
    I have a difficult time believing it was a problem with the airplane. Although it’s possible.
    I’ve flown the MAX about 10 times now and the last one around 3 weeks ago had probably a hundred hours on it. Those planes are friggin solid and the nicest 73 I’ve flown yet.
     
  21. Bob Parks

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    I have to respect your experience with this and many other airplanes. But there has to be a source of erratic information or loss of it that prompted erratic inputs to the control of the aircraft.
     
  22. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Your second line is why I'm not buying it. No evidence at all. Pure speculation.
     
  23. Bob Parks

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    Well, they have found the "black box" that is actually orange. The flight recorder may tell us something.
     
  24. JLF

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    No I agree with that but this isn’t a fly by wire computerized Airbus. 737s are still somewhat old fashioned.
    An autopilot problem would last a couple of seconds until it kicked off automatically or some grabbed the yoke and made it disconnect.
    Then it’s just cables from the yoke and rudder pedals out to the flight control servos.
    So the information loss would have to have effected the flight controls themselves or the pilots ability to hand fly through instrumentation loss.
    But who knows? This is all based on the theory that the pitots were blocked or covered. It could be anything at this point.
     
  25. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Thanks. I know a little bit about how the Boeing airplanes are rigged, cables and stuff, but the pilot reported flight problems on the previous flight so there had to be something that was feeding him the wrong info with which he was trying to cope.
     

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