The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

In the first of Wolfgang's pictures of P3/412P 0844 from his post above attached to this post you can see the engine mounting tube which I have arrowed which all P3s including 0846 and 412Ps had/have but was not present on the real 0846 when converted to P4 and the other P4s. This tube is also not present on Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003.

In the second picture you can see the same tube which I've arrowed in between the exhaust pipes as it nears the back corner of the engine area of the chassis. You can also see that there is no tube above the left hand side rear engine mounting where I have drawn a line. P4s have an additional tube here, which P3s and 412Ps did not/ do not have, that you can see in the 3rd picture of 0856 of the corresponding right hand side of P4 0856.

DP0003 also has this tube seen in the 4th picture which with the above proves P4 plans, not P3 have been used to build Mr Glickenhaus's replica chassis.
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Although they are of different length on a genuine P4 chassis because of the different side engine mount positions between P3 type 412P and 312F1 2 valve engines and P4 and 312F1 3 valve engines, you can also see where the 2 tubes I've arrowed in red in the first pic (Wolfgang) of DP0003 meet where I've arrowed in yellow as they do on real P4s such as P4 0858 in the second pic. These tubes do not meet on most P3s and 412Ps to form a space that MAY be for access to the starter motor as shown by the 3rd picture of 412P 0854.
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Hang on Steve, you have confused me even more and unfortunately sort of weakened your argument ...

How come #0858 (which was a P4 when built by Ferrari) has that diagonal tube that would be beside the starter that you earlier said P4's don't have?? What about #0856? Can we be conclusive here?

This diagonal tube was used to determine DP003's rear chassis could not be #0846 because historical photos show it did not exist in 1967 at Daytona and also P4's did not have them.


If P4's did have this diagonal as per #0858 and #0856, and maybe #0846 was the only that didn't, then does #0900 and #0900b/DP002? If the answer is yes this does sort of imply that DP003 was built to P4 plans ... maybe?, I'm starting to think Ferrari added tubes as they felt like it once the engine/gearbox was installed .
Pete

 

Pete, P4 0858 does not have the diagonal tube. I've used the same picture as above and drawn a red line where it would be if it did. 0856, Piper's 0900 and 0900a do not have this tube either. Will post pics later.

See also the yellow arrow where the P4s had the added tube above the rear side engine mount which P3s did not and 412Ps do not have.
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Below are pictures of the chassis of genuine Ferrari P4 0856, Piper 0900, Piper 0900a and Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003. You can see that none of these chassis have the diagonal engine mount tube that reaches from the forward side mount to the back corner of the engine area of the chassis. All P3s had and 412Ps have this tube. I have drawn in red a line where the tube would be if it had one.

Also arrowed in yellow is where the added tube is that forms a triangle on all the above P4 type chassis above the rear side engine mounts. None of the P3s had and no 412Ps have this tube. From the period pictures at Daytona 1967 of the real 0846 when converted to P4 it doesn't look like it has the tube above the rear side mounts but it could well be the picture.

Many a true word is spoken in jest and from what Pete joked earlier, the side engine mountings on the genuine Ferrari P3 and P4 chassis were actually installed with the engine placed inside the chassis, attached to the bulkhead and the side mountings were then tailor fit to match the engine.

Picture 1 = Ferrari P4 0856.
Picture 2 = David Piper's own P4 0900.
Picture 3 = Piper P4 replica 0900a, the ex Max Wakefield chassis.
Picture 4 = Piper P4 replica DP0003, Mr Glickenhaus's chassis.

Please ignore the red circles in the pictures of Piper's 0900 and 0900a, second and third pics.
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Okay Steve, my post #8321 is 100% wrong then because I thought we were talking about the lower diagonal.

So DP003 is the same as #0846 at Daytona in '67 then.

What appears to be odd, and it maybe a photo angle thing, is that Jim's engine seems to sit lower in the chassis ... has to be a photo angle thing and my "brain"

Okay I'm back to ignoring this thread, nothing learnt or changed.
Pete
ps: If moderators could delete my post #8321 that would be good as it may confuse others!

 

Below is a Karl Ludvigsen picture of the real Ferrari P3/P4 0846 at Daytona 1967 which I have expanded so that the rear side engine mountings are in view. I have circled in red where to look in the second picture. Bottom 2 pictures are of the rear side engine mountings of Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis along with his disproved explanations.

You can see that there is no need for any angled bushes or extra bolts to be drilled in to the chassis to make the engine fit as it all lines up. It just slotted in as it was been built to.

Photographic proof Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis is NOT the real 0846.
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So what do you have to say about the latest set of pics then Ginge! it seems Steve suckered you yet again.

 

Suckered? Again?

Some blurry photographs are NOT MF's emails in full are they? But carry on...

 

So Steve why did it take "us" 12 something years to post finally a useful and very relevant photo? Too much noise ruins the debate.

Even the talk about the "diagonal" in previous posts was a complete waste of time, but not this photo. It's a pity, but it is what it is ...
Pete

 

Who needs an email from MF, the pictures tell the facts, but you keep those blinkers on anyway.

 

You had complained on a number of occasions that nobody had explained the differences between P3 and P4 and when I did you state that it was a complete waste of time. You also belittled and dismissed that and other information by saying "nothing learnt or changed". The talk about the "diagonal" was very relevant. Mr Glickenhaus had very disrespectfully said that David Piper did not know the differences between a P3 and P4 when he gave Nathan the photograph, then and many other times. The "diagonal" proved that David Piper knows exactly the differences between a P3 and P4 when he said that the chassis was built to P4 plans modified to fit a P3 engine, and that Mr Glickenhaus does not.

 

Steve,
Interesting.

The reason I wanted to know about the differences between a P3 and P4 chassis is so we could use this information to help identify Jim's chassis. Thanks now I know, but ...

I believe your photo showing the gearbox removed does indeed answer how the engine was mounted back in 1967 for #0846 and therefore the most relevant information you have posted in this thread in regards to identifying Jim's chassis
Pete

 

So if DP003 is a P4 chassis somebody at some time converted it to take a P3 engine (or an engine that has the mounting points 12mm wider than a P4) and, either at the same time or later, did a strange modification to enable a P4 or F1 engine to be installed too ... but in this case with the rear of the engine lowered (as the mounting holes are lower).

All very weird and yes not how #0846 when a P4 was done, based on your gearbox less photo.
Pete

 

---------------------------------------- The End ---------------------------------

 

Steve, those photos and the photos from the rear are very helpful to understanding the differences in real P4s, DP's replica P4s, and JG/s particular car.

So - DP 0900 and 0900a have the same engine mounting configuration as a real P4... but JG/s 003/0846 does not. Rather, it has the correct P4 mounting configuration as a real P4, PLUS a welded in additional mounting point currently used for a bracket to mount the current engine. Is that correct?

If so - then the difference and discrepancy isn't necessarily the chassis, it's the engine, which you say is not a P4 engine. Somebody prior to JG's ownership modified the 003/0846 chassis to take that different non-P4 engine. Who might have made that modification? If it is actually an identical 1 of 3 replica chassis constructed for DP, then the engine mount modification for that non-P4 engine can only have been made by DP, correct?

Whoever did modify the chassis to accept the different engine, their starting point was a P4 chassis, not a modified P3 chassis - correct? But you've proved that 003/0846 was not a modified P3 chassis, it's a P4 chassis/replica modified for that different engine, correct?

Further - if the 1966/67 genuine 0846, as shown in the Ludvigsen photos, actually did match the P4 engine mount configuration when it was converted by the factory from a P3 to a P4, and matches the DP 0900 and 0900a replica chassis, doesn't it also match the 003/0846 chassis apart from the hacked-in mount for the different engine? In that case, doesn't 003/0846 fundamentally match the 66/67 0846 and DP 0900 and 0900a? With the difference being a hacked-in engine mount, which must have been performed by DP (if it's a replica chassis) or by someone after 0846 was scrapped by Ferrari, if it was recovered and sold to DP - and then DP is still the likely owner when the engine mount modification was made. Correct?

So - still not ---The End--- , the questions go right back to DP and require the knowledge of who performed that engine mount modification, what the engine in 003/0846 actually is. Maybe I've misunderstood Steve's tales of the tubes, but that's what I gather so far.

 

Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis has the P4 configuration of tubes, which omits the diagonal tube that reaches to the back corner of the engine area that has been discussed, but in a different position in the chassis to match the P3 type engine. On a genuine P4, Piper's 0900 and replica 0900a the point of intersection of the tubes that form the forward side engine mounts are nearer the bulkhead to match the different engine mount positions of the P4 engine. They are a bit further down towards the back of the chassis on a P3. Although Mr Glickenhaus's chassis has been built to P4 plans, it was either originally built or later modified to correctly fit the P3 type 412P or 312 F1 2 valve engine with projecting lugs.

The first picture is of Mr Glickenhaus's DP0003 chassis. Obviously where the red arrow points is where the mount is on this chassis to correctly mount the P3, 412P or 312 F1 2 valve engine. To correctly mount a P4 engine the tubes would have to meet and intersect to form the mount roughly where the yellow arrow is. The tubes would have to be of different length to make this mount but P4 plans could still be used. The P4 tubes nearer the bulkhead would be shorter and the P4 tubes nearer the back of the chassis would be longer.

As I have said before P3 type engines such as 412P and 312F1 2 valve engines have projecting lugs that meet the chassis as they have to be on Mr G's DP0003 chassis so the engine will fit. P4s have protrusions that extend from the chassis to meet the engine as the forward side P4 engine mountings do not protrude and are more level/flush with the engine block. See the second picture of P4 0858 where you can see these protrusions that I have circled in red with wing like strengtheners. Also P4 chassis have a bigger bolt hole than P3 and 412P chassis. See where I have arrowed in yellow on the second picture of P4 0858. Chassis DP0003 does not have the large bolt hole as it's been correctly built to mount the P3 type engine with projecting lugs and has a smaller bolt hole as the P3 and 412P type chassis had.

When the original P3 and P4 chassis were built by Ferrari's chassis maker, the engine was placed inside the frame, screwed to the bulkhead and these side mounting tubes were tailor fit to match the coordinates of the side mountings of the engine block. This may have been how DP0003 was built to match the P3, 412P or 312 F1 2 valve engine that the chassis had fitted first. If that was not the case and it was initially built to fit a P4 engine, the P4 side mounts would have been removed and new ones fitted to correctly fit the P3 type engine.

Now what David Piper must have done later was fit the 3 litre 312 F1 3 valve engine, which is similar to a P4. However, he did not use the more sound method of removing the P3 side mounting tubes and fit the tubes to more correctly fit the 312 F1 3 valve engine which has different engine mounting coordinates. instead he used the solution we see in Mr Glickenhaus's car today and added/bolted on a forward reaching triangle on both sides to meet the forward side mounts of the engine. For the rear side mounts he added a bolt on bush one side and drilled the lower tube the other side and placed a bolt through it to meet the mounting points at the rear side of the 312F1 3 valve engine. Although I personally do not think this solution would be sound for a 24 hour endurance race winner, it may be ok for road use. I'm sure David Piper knows much better than I do.

The real P3 0846 when converted to P4 by Ferrari had the P3 engine mounting tubes removed and replaced by the correct P4 tubes with the protrusions to meet the flush mountings of the P4 engine which is why you can see these with the large bolt hole in the Karl Ludvigsen picture in my post 8212.
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One can also see that for Ferrari it would have been no more than 1/2 a days work to modify #0846's P3 engine mounts for the new(er) P4 engine. Pretty simple stuff ... even I could do it
Pete

 

Ing. Forghieri did say that it would have been far easier for the Ferrari factory to modify the chassis in the correct way.....

 

In the auction brochure for 003 prior to Jim purchasing the car it even mentions the person who carried out conversion work on the car for DP, I imagine it was them that made the crude modifications for the revised engine as previously discussed.

This example was not Pipers best version, it made use of the odds and sods he had left over from the 0900 cars hence no doubt why he let it go.

When I questioned the quality of the conversion work way back in this thread I stated then that it would have been far easier for Ferrari to chop out the old P3 engine mounts in the original 0846 and install fresh new tubes than keep the old mountings in place when they upgraded the car back in 67.

The only reason I could see why they had maybe retained the old mounts was if the P4 was a prototype engine and they wanted to keep the option of reverting back to a p3 if it did not work out. Steve has shown that was not the case on 003 as the modification was made to fit another type of engine anyway, which was similar but not the same as a p4.

It all falls back into place as per Pipers auction description of the car, and all as Jim purchased 003.

 

Below is another Karl Ludvigsen picture at Daytona 1967 that I have expanded to show the left hand side rear side engine mount on the real 0846.

You can see that the mounting bolt lines up perfectly with the engine mounting, best shown in the red circle in the second picture

The tube that I have arrowed in red on the real 0846 in the 3rd picture is positioned at a different angle than the one on the Glickenhaus DP0003 chassis seen arrowed in red in the 4th picture. In this 4th picture you can also see where I have arrowed in yellow that the forward side engine mounting is closer to the back than on the real 0846 as they can't even be seen in the pictures.

The 5th picture is of DP0003 and Mr Glickenhaus's disproved explanations.

There are other detail differences.
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Just double checking. How do we know these very, very, very relevant photos are of #0846 please and not another P4?
Pete

 

You continue to post these copious and detailed pictures and information, but don't answer these three questions:

- Are all the Piper replica chassis identical? If not, why is 003 different?
- Did Piper make the pathetic engine mount modifications (Steve's words) in 003 to accommodate a different engine? Do the other replicas have the same pathetic engine mount modifications?
- Why was there repaired crash damage on 003 identified by John Hadjuk? Was 003 ever crashed?

Any answer to these?

Perry

 

This thread is not about detailing what 003 actually is, its to determine whether it was ever 0846. The latest photos confirm the original 0846 never retained its p3 engine mounts when Ferrari converted it to p4 spec, which was the whole basis of Jims theory.

003 will never have received the press coverage that the original P cars did, who knows what racing life and incidents happened to it over the years, little would have been documented. David Piper sold it as 003 warts and all.

 

And while I agree that it is very, very likely that #0846 never retained it's P3 engine mounts as it would be just too easy to convert to P4 spec, to tie up any loose ends we need confirmation on how we know that Karl Ludvigsen's photos are indeed of #0846 at Daytona in 1967.

Unfortunately in these photos I cannot confirm that I am looking at a Spider and not a Coupe. Any "experts" see anything that 100% confirms that the photos are of #0846.
Pete
ps: Again now that I know the chassis differences between a P3 and P4 in the engine bay area, it very obviously made no sense for Ferrari to not do the conversion properly. As I said in a previous post, we are talking about a 1/2 day job, thats all.