The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread | Page 328 | FerrariChat

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Nov 1, 2003.

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  1. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    The liability comes from the understanding of who owns the car, and the amount of money and legal team available. Not too many official people will want to get involved in trying to discredit this car. The experts have been very quiet, and seem to be keeping their thoughts to themselves. I'm quite sure many of them have been reading this thread biteing thier collective tounges.

    If a highly recognized Ferrari historian did indeed try to discredit the car, then the onus would be him to prove that it is not 0846,which could result in legal fees from the owner if it ever went that far.

    I hop I explained this correctly. But probably not..
     
  2. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    This owner has demonstrated a propensity on multiple topics here on Ferrari Chat to make threats of legal action against those that disagree with him. Those are only the publicly visible Yves items.

    All of his fanboys in the cheap seats should take that to heart before wondering why many of the internationally recognized are quiet here.

    Jeff
     
  3. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    Tenney,Your post is incredibly useless. Guess you have bothered to miss the important subsequent information. Time to return to the nose bleed section of the bleachers
     
  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    #8179 tbakowsky, May 30, 2016
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
    Agree. There is a reason they are silent. Piper could indeed put this to rest very quickly. He sold a chassis he described as a reproduction. He is immune to any legal charges. There is really no reason why he himself couldn't settle this. A simple invoice from the constructor would end it. Unless he is enjoying the entertainment this car brings.

    Or on the far left, Piper may have really screwed up, not knowing what he had.
     
  5. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Or, Piper could have said something to Jim along the lines of "well, some say this is built on top of 0846. Of course, I have no idea if that's true, but it might be" as a way of puffing up the price.

     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Very possible. In which case he could be included in a legal fight if it ever came to that. I don't think Piper is a stupid man..far from it. It may very well show how wise he is as a dricert result of his silence on this matter.
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Your post was written as though he was "the greatest person to walk the planet" ... I'm just saying, lets calm down a bit :).

    He didn't solve cancer, or even save anybodies life (as far as I know), he was just a guy racing and selling cars. Us car guys do tend to get carried away with our hobby, but it really is not that important in the whole scheme of things ;)
    Pete
     
  8. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Liability? This is absurd. There is nothing to read again – not even slowly – but to carefully explain.
     
  9. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    #8184 lgs, May 31, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thank you! However, this fantastic picture with a rather relaxed Mauro Forghieri may hardly change the fact, that the car is no works Ferrari but David Piper's DP0003 replica and a mix of some extremely nice but unidentified Ferrari parts.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. johngtc

    johngtc Formula Junior
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    George probably was a bit strident in his defence of David Piper, but like me and quite a few others it probably does stick in his craw to see the man constantly criticised and abused by the same posters who are shouting 'Respect! Respect!' for Jim Glickenhaus.

    People can speculate as much as they like but DP is under no obligation to give evidence to the F-Chat court. And perhaps he is of a generation that feels any private discussion between JG and himself is just that, private!
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Wouldn't that be a nice change in this modern shallow world :)
    Pete
     
  12. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    Is there a more recent item of documentation, Jeff?
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Moderators - please delete if not allowed

    I found this link to the Maranello scrap pile that I just had to post

    https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=B7d2V-QyCmQC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=trento+bondone+ferrari+1963&source=bl&ots=KfVTtVaGmx&sig=_DMqDu-SWt86bsc7YT-Pr-GmfJ4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqoKrPi4bNAhVFKaYKHZJpBOMQ6AEIRTAJ#v=onepage&q=trento%20bondone%20ferrari%201963&f=false

    If the link doesnt work, it was to a google book preview of Graham Gaulds book "Modena Racing memories" and on page 132 the picture shows some rather disused parts with the caption reading "Though the Ferrari scrap pile had virtually disappeared by 1963, various wreckage could still be found lying about. Even Mauro Foghieri could not identify the bits lying here, which clearly came from a competition car, and probably one of the 1960 sports cars."

    No its not #0846 but gives a bit of colour to the debate.

    Ciao
     
  14. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    The link works for me. I'm not surprised at all, considering that even well into the seventies, some "steps in the procurement line" for the road cars were still pretty basic: for instance, the châssis for the 308 GTB/GTS were built by Vaccari e Bosi, and there are many photos of châssis piled by three or fours here and there in some corners behind the factory, not even protected from the rain.

    Rgds
     
  15. 3500 GT

    3500 GT Formula 3

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    #8190 3500 GT, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

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    #8191 PAUL500, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    It is entirely plausible that "someone" picked through the Ferrari scrap pile, whether with permission or not, found some potentially usable bits and put them to one side then years later cobbled those bits into a P3 esque frame which they eventually did a deal with David Piper over. Later Piper could have had it modded to accept a P4 style engine, and such work is identified in the auction catalogue when Piper put 003 up for sale.

    He was the man to go to in the 70s if you had P series parts you wanted to offload, if that was the case he could have simply though "yep, handy to have a spare chassis for one of my 0900 series cars" and thats how 003 eventually came about.

    If the chassis stampings/tags were still evident and after purchase Jim found those then like Spitfires etc it can form the basis of a restoration back to original.

    However there were no numbers on Jims chassis at all, if there had been in the past then clearly they have been removed on purpose so as to separate the title of the car in question from the metal that remained ie "scrapped!"

    Cars are scrapped every day, many of the parts live on in other examples or kit cars etc, none of them though can claim the title of the donor if the original owner removes the identification from said parts beforehand.

    Ferrari did such a thing with 0846 and have clearly stated this, as the last official owner of the original 0846 they severed that link between the history and the metal for good.
     
  17. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Paul,

    Could you enlighten me (really: i'm not playing naive or hyprocrit here: I confess I just don't know!) about the "title" for a 1966 race car?

    I've been thinking freely these days about the legal aspects (although not a lawyer myself) and I must confess that, as Ferrari never published any register themselves of their racing cars (and certainly not of their road cars either!) I don't see exactly how any rights could be attached to a chassis number?

    As, to the best of my knowledge, there is no form defined by any norm for these racing cars registries, so any factory/team must be free to do whatever they want with the chassis numbers?
    And as there is no norm defined for the percentage, or weight, or volume of parts from which a car can be considered legitimately as "being XXXX" again, here also they are completly free to decide whether any pile of parts is enough to qualify for being "XXXX"?

    What could be considered as "a title" or "the title"? Were those cars registered by any International federation, so as to clear the customs, etc? And if so, was this organism officially notified that a car has "ceased to exist"?

    I'm curious here.

    Thanks.

    Rgds
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    May I answer this question, each and every vehicle that was exported by Ferrari to any country had to have whatever customs duties and other costs paid when it entered the country of destination. For that reason some Ferrari's had changes of chassis numbers, this is before vins were even thought of and if you had a Ferrari and ordered a new one you got them to simply number it as the old and viola it matched the paperwork you already had that showed duties paid and the chances anyone at customs would know the arcane differences between the 375MM that was #0362 and the new 375MM with the paperwork #0362 are nil. Some countries had enormous duties which would have made this skullduggery all very much worthwhile. Generally if the car was only passing through a country there wouldn't have been any duties at all but each country was different. Ferrari were pretty bad for this and Maserati did it on a weekly basis with perhaps half of the 250F receiving new chassis numbers. As an aside Shelby America imported the chassis that they built the prototype GT40 #GT-110 that Bruce McLaren converted into the very quick X-1 and a couple of year after its last race the IRS came to discuss import duties that had never been paid, since the chassis was not supposed to have stayed in the USA, and the remaining parts were worth less than the outstanding costs and they were bulldozed under the foundations of the building next door which settled things.

    The other option for a carnet change is when the entrant enters a car some months out from a race such as Le Mans where you cannot simply rock up with another car and then the original entry gets crashed or worse, destroyed and the entrant will simply renumber another car from the series to fulfill the entry as Ferrari did with #0774TR at Le Mans in 1960 when the original entry, #0772TR was destroyed at the Targa Florio, they quickly changed the stamping and off it went. The car could then revert to being #0774TR after it won at Le Mans and the scrutineers only cared that what was listed on the entry form was what was in front of them and the whole episode was recorded in Ferrari's files so its not secret in any way. Jaguar also did it with C-Type #XKC012/047 and those are just two I can think of.

    As for what makes a car genuine, real, original etc and et al. They are all descriptors which can be affected by perspective and belief rather than scientific but Jenks did a fantastic explanation that to paraphrase states that a car is original when it leaves the factory gates but cannot be original after that. The varying degrees of originality flow like this

    Original
    Genuine
    Authentic
    Resurrection
    Re-construction
    Facsimile
    Special
    Duplication
    Destroyed
    Scrapped
    Broken up

    Converted

    To all intents and purposes Jim's car is either a resurrection built around whatever surviving original parts and in Jenks perspective it needs to contain more than one original part and contain all that remains of #0846 for this to be so or is a re-construction if it contains just one part from a P3 and either way the differentiation from anything more such as original, genuine or authentic is that the entity #0846, ceased to exist in 1966. On a personal level, every single person has their own perspective of how much needs to survive for it to be acceptable to call it #0846, some would go for 100% others 1% and most might settle around the 50% baring in mind that any racing car that has survived absolutely as original has clearly not been raced.

    As for registration, well that is a system used by the government to control, track and tax motor vehicles and in some countries or states you can register anything as just about anything because it is not in their remit to assess exactly what a car is or isn't. In a lot its just about whether its road-worthy and whether you have paid your road taxes.... Could you imagine Hazel or Billy Bob down at the DMV assessing your 1966 Ferrari P3? That is a hilarious thought.
     
  19. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    As Timmmmmy was quoting Denis Jenkinson.

    "Scrapped" by Denis Jenkinson.

    "This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, then that car has gone forever, and the nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number."
     
  20. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Thanks Timothy.

    What I had in mind is a "legal" perspective; "legal" in brackets because I am not a lawyer (although working with some, of which some are Italians) and because what I was wondering about - just as an aside - is that is there any outside organisation such as a federation, or any official department of registration for racing vehicles, etc...that may have held copy of any of the "original papers" of 0846 (or any other racing car for the matter); or may have destroyed these when Ferrari decided to cross the number from the register, and might object to the number being re-instated.

    If not, the factory may do entirely what they want, even resurrect the number should they decide to do so (please: I have not suggested they have to do this...).

    Some have suggested there might be legal matters in pursuing the search about the origins of "DP003" too deeply, and this raises other interesting asides as to which Law would apply, because the basis of Italian law and common law are quite different...

    Rgds
     
  21. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Fine Steve; no problem with quotes from "Jenks" from my side, but this is more a philosophical definition, in so far as Jenks is an authority on the matter of race cars, but not a legal one. I'm trying to figure out if there are any "more or less" legal frame (no pun intended...) around the registration of a racing car by its factory. My guess is that there is none, if "Jenks" needed to work on one.
    Anyone knows if the racing cars, as manufactured by the factory, where "invoiced" in a way or another to the Scuderia, or was there no paper involved?

    Rgds
     
  22. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

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    Fair enough that is an accurate appraisal but an easy perspective is to say that nobody would ever state that #0846 is genuine and that lack of genuine-ness leaves us back at square one with a question of personal perspective.....
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #8198 miurasv, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    Before Ing. Forghieri saw the pictures of the chassis and it was his opinion at that time that the front section of the chassis contained original parts of 0846 he did say that JG's chassis could not legally be called 0846.

    However, since seeing the pictures Ing. Forghieri has said:

    "The rear portion of Glickenhaus’ fake P4 is completely new and these details couldn’t have been missed by coachbuilders that built real P4s. It’s in the front section, that has not been restored, that I believe there are the biggest differences from a real one.”
     
  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    But isn't it what we should eventually settle for, outside of discussing it for the pleasure of discussion? I mean, how this chassis came into being will probably never be explained.

    Rgds
     
  25. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Yes Steve, I know he said that the car could not be "legally" called 0846. What I would like to better weight, or define, or understand, is if that is a "personal appreciation" of the effects of the manufacturer having crossed the number from its register, or if that there is actually any legal disposition about racing cars stating, or defining, this.

    You know as welll as I do that Enzo himself didn't care much about the legal aspects in general; for instance, when Favre began to manufacture its "reproductions 250 GTO" in Switzerland in 1983, the factory remained completely silent, this to the point that in the french 1984-85 edition of Autocourse there is an advertising from Favre on two pages stating that "il est encore possible de s'acheter une Ferrari 250 GTO". Nobody minded until the FIAT lawyers decided that this was too much...

    My guess (only a guess, again...) is that in the matter of racing cars for the sixties, there is actually not much legal "frame" and that the factory here is therefore free to define its own rule. So if they decide that there is no "xxxx" anymore, legally there is none; but, the reverse is true: they could decide to resurrect it also, for any reason they saw fit. They will not, but they could.

    Rgds
     

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