365 motor assy complete with transmission

A pattern Dave ? 2011 and 2015 ? With 40 major jobs in between ? Motors, majors, resto's, etc

So it's just fine that Mitch is obviously lying all over the internet but this guy can't even imply that maybe, just maybe, Mitch himself is part of the problem ?

What kind of bizarre world is this ???

 

Oh, so you did having a running invoice along the way ? I could have sworn that you had previously said the exact opposite... maybe you could clarify that for everyone...

so, a simple question, are you saying that you never received any running invoices from us for the 365 as the work progressed ?

I've got the e-mails with attachments to prove otherwise Mitch, so be careful here...

 

Really John ? Lots of recent experience installing the timing cover on wiped out old 365 motors ?

Have a look a the pic in post # 1...and then walk us through how it's done...
and then tells us how long it takes to disassemble and clean off all the fresh sealer you have on there before you start all over again.

Thanks.

 

Yikes. What a mess.
I have a question though. Isn't the OP (Mitchell) the gentleman who posted several sort of botched threads about selling his 365 on ebay, then actually sold it, then canceled the sale because he misunderstood the difference between "buy it now" and a reserve price, then relisted it, then canceled the sale again and decided to keep the car?

If so, the problem might not entirely rest with the shop in question. I don't know either of these guys, but it seems unfair to crucify a shop owner on a public forum (where unlike the courts you are deemed guilty immediately) when the accuser pretty consistently demonstrates that he has trouble communicating his desires, or even knowing those desires for himself.

 

Shoot at you ? Shoot at you ? How did I do that ?

I said I was disappointed... personally disappointed because I'd previously sought and valued you input... but, sure, go ahead post whatever you'd like to...i'm not running from past 'paperwork' mistakes... and you don't need to threaten me...estimates and agreements are by far the most challenging part of this business and every single job is completely different to the one that proceeded it.

There is no 'one size fits all' agreement that covers all eventualities during an overhaul of a 40 year old Ferrari.

 

Thank you... for your level headed, unbiased sanity... thank you.

 

It's the kind of world where the members here are expected to be polite even when they don't agree with the other person's position.

Careful Brett I have a PM from you where you ask me which bumper is the correct one for a series 1 car. So take your own advice and stick to the facts and lay off the theatrics.

Apparently you decided not to take my advice.

Brett this isn't the first, second, or even third time this kind of situation has happened with one of your customers and you know it. Pretending that it hasn't happened doesn't make it true. So let's stop the "it's only happened twice in the last 4 years thing" ok? You know there are other Fchat members that have had problems with your shop sticking to estimates, or communicating effectively.

I've told you in the past that lashing out at a customer in public instead of dealing with that upset customer and trying to fix the problem doesn't make you look good and isn't the best path to take. Apparently you decided, once again, not to take that advice either.

You also know I've been sent PM's and emails by you trying to explain what happened with those other customers. I haven't posted PM's or emails you've sent me because I don't think its proper. You might want to go back and look at some of the written correspondence you've had with me and see if you really want to debate me in public.

I'm not your enemy. As a matter of fact you have asked me to help you smooth things out with previous customers you have gotten into the exact same situation with in the past. You have, unwisely, not taken my advice in the past. Once again I will give you some very good advice; quit trying to antagonize people in public and go fix the problem. Your business will lose this fight if you continue on this path with the attitude you are now exhibiting.

 

Brett, I just pointed out that nearly 20 hours and $1,300 of labor for essentially cleaning threads and reinstalling a front cover on an engine that is out of the car seemed like a lot of hours for the work. How many hours were billed for the entire engine rebuild?

I am not a professional mechanic and I will defer to the experts on here but, I can tell you that I have examined the complete invoices for a total engine rebuild done by a well known shop in Reno for a 400i that I once considered buying and I can assure you that the labor hours did not seem anywhere near as large.

I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

Good day Brett,

How do you see my comment as "piling On"? I was simply making a statement in generalized terms:

Given what I stated above...

1. Would you not agree that if a shop is not sending invoices to customers in advance of payment seems strange and perhaps inappropriate? Remember that I am not stating that you are or have been doing this, but simply asking a simple question.

2. Would you not agree that if a shop is withholding one's property without proper and correct legal paper and ask/demand payment seemed extortive? Remember that I am not stating that you are or have been doing this, but simply asking a simple question.

3. If the shop in question felt totally justified professionally and legally to do what they were doing, would they not feel comfortable to explain their position to Court?

To me this is not "piling on", but simply stating my opinion and/or answers to my own questions posted above. How would you answer these questions?

If you feel that your actions and between you and Mitchell is totally justified then you should have no issue or concerns should the situation elevate to a legal level.

As for your comment:

Quite honestly, given my experiences nothing these days surprise me and so anything is possible. Again if this does not apply to you, then you have no concerns.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Ok, I think I understand what your saying... but for the sake of clarity...

Max can't ask a simple, entirely logical question of Mitch (you know, Mitch, the guy that started this) because it's impolite.

I'm supposed to be ashamed that I asked you a question 3 years before I opened my shop about the correct rear bumper (reflectors or not) that Ferrari used for an INTERIM model.

I'm supposed to just let my guys read uniformed, unfounded innuendo about their work and about my shop on the internet rather than defend it in the very same forum.

I can't address any inaccuracies posted on the internet because that's antagonistic "lashing out".

Is that it ?

 

No Brett that isn't it. It's ok, it's your life and your business. You have the prerogative of handling maters in the method of your choosing. I've gone out of my way to try to help you and you know it. No big deal to me; I'm not the one looking bad here.
The problem is you'd rather be "right" than "win". You'd rather argue than fix issues and have a business that others think highly of. You rather attack than take the high road and show others you're a businessman that should be trusted and respected.

 

I read what you wrote John... go back and read it yourself... it was far more inflammatory than that !

Maybe you should have started that particular post with your second sentence in your latest post... the one where you explain that you're not a professional mechanic (or, I'll assume, a certified machinist/master engine builder either) and that your entire experience of Ferrari V-12 engine building is based on an invoice that you once saw.

Nevertheless, did that invoice detail all of the hours that went into the machining ? Or was that typically subcontracted work just a line item with $3-4-5000 attached ? Are you aware of how vastly Ferrari improved their metallurgy between the 365 motors and the 400i motors ?

With the exception of crank or cam grinding, we do everything in-house and the hours you see on Mitch's invoice are for 2 motors, so please try and keep that in mind.

To answer your question, including disassembly, all cleaning, all machining, reassembly, etc, a motor like either of Mitch's can easily exceed 150 hours... and when it comes in pieces, damaged, without studs, nut's , bolts, well then, it's even more difficult, not less.

 

Ok.

 

I don't think it's fair to call someone out on their knowledge if you don't back up your own telling us what training you personally have in the automotive field. After all you are the one explaining things so I'm assuming you have schooling and you're a master engine builder.

 

Well, it feels like 'piling on' for a couple of reasons Sam...

1. He did get invoices at various points along the way.

2. I never, ever said to Mitch that I was withholding anything of his... after weeks of getting daily e-mails and one word phone calls (Shipped ? Shipped ? Shipped ?), I finally asked (ASKED) Mitch one question, "well, should we talk about the balance owing before I ship this out ?"

For Christ sake, I shipped him his Merak in May and haven't even bugged him about that $30K since.

While I'm on the subject, I'll address one other issue...YES, Mitch has periodically asked me if I NEED money, just like he always did... and when I NEED money for his account, I say YES... when I don't, I say NO... and that answer often depends on whether he's prefaced the question with a long winded update of his money problems... if he spends 10 minutes telling me about getting ripped off for $225K by his contractor or about his mounting health care bills or about his burnt QP, then I'm more likely to say NO Mitch, I don't need any money right now... but does that mean that he doesn't OWE me any money ???

3. I will have no problem whatsoever doing that. My guys update their work log books twice a day, I insist on it and it's how they get paid... it's all there, in their own handwriting and it's the property of GT...I can reference it anytime... and just because I don't have the time to transfer every bit of detail over to a customer invoice doesn't mean it's inaccurate... if someone wants written detail for every single hour during a 1200 job then I can provide it... but I don't feel the need if it isn't requested... and it wasn't in this case until about a week ago.

 

Ha, nice one Newman... ask a stupid question that you already know the answer to...I'll let Scotty field this one... you know Scotty, my power machinist and master engine builder...

 

Curious to see what a master engine builder certificate looks like. Thanks!

I also think it's a valid question to a shop owner.

 

Good day Brett,

There is no need to defend yourself or your actions to me. As I said, I posted some general comments to what was being presented and were not directly specifically to you or your firm. Please reread the questions I posted that explained my original comment before interpreting them as ganging up / piling on you. For some reason my comments and/or my questions have struck a cord with you and they really should not.

As I said before, if you feel that conduct and actions have been on the level with your customer then there should be no issue to resolve all this in a reasonable manner.

Cheers,

Sam

 

IMO, you should have used a Crating Service, to ship it.

You would not need to buy anything, and shipping the engine on an open pallet is not a very good idea.

You will end up with a Freight Claim, if not an entire loss/theft of goods....
Theres a reason Ducatis come in a drop over cardboard box.

Play on....

 

See you in Austin.....

 

As I said, I never needed one before... Mitch wanted it on a skid, so I got a skid and the other stuff I need to accommodate him.

 

You showed too much of your hand and I'm calling your bluff...I won't be goaded into anymore of your petty nonsense...goodbye Newman.

 

Thanks for the clarification Sam.